Is the USA in Decline, and, if so, How Can We Save It?

Today in the Toronto Star I read the following:

“America is now a laughingstock” by Haroon Siddiqui

(Apologies for the length of the link; the Star has gone to a new site structure, and as a result has some of the most gruesome URLs I have ever encountered. If the link doesn’t work, go to http://www.thestar.ca and select News, Star Columnists, Haroon Siddiqui, then his column dated 16 November.)

The article, an opinion piece, draws many disturbing parallels between the events of the recent election in the USA and elections characterised by nepotism, irregular balloting, and procedural domination by wealthy candidates in other countries.

As an example, Mr Siddiqui points out that there is no independent nationwide electoral organization in the States, but that elections are handled on a local (county-by-county?) basis. From various other stories I read that supporters of the two sides have positions in various local courts and counties, and are thus able to influence election results.

See mention of Katherine Harris, for example, in “Florida count court fights continue” (no author cited).

See also “Bush rejects olive branch from Gore” by Kathleen Kenna.

(These two are in the World News section)

We Canadians live right next to the USA and have a ringside seat to see its evolution. As well, our society and economy is intimately linked to that of the USA. We are affected by every illness of the USA: if it gets the sniffles, we get the flu. :slight_smile:

But the USA is the most powerful nation in the world today; it affects everyone. This is why I have been so dismayed by the events and the conduct of Various Important USAn People after this election. It seems that some of them are finding it very difficult to think of the good of their nation, rather than their own paths to power.

We need a strong and vital USA; a weak, divided, corrupt, and doddering (but still powerful) USA is a world-scale disaster waiting to happen.

So: Is the USA in decline? Or is there enough health in the system, and this current crisis is something that will blow over?

The current set of stories from The Onion come to mind here, especially “Serbia deploys peacekeeping forces to US”

Well, it appears that the links don’t work. Sigh.

<tech> The bulletinboard software seems to have put spaces in the links, and the server no longer understands them, but sends an error message. However, if you carefully edit the spaces out of the URL displayed in your browser and activate it again, it will take you to the appropriate page at the Toronto Star. </tech>

Sunspace, here are some of my specific comments:
“No matter how hard Bill Clinton and the American media try to hold up the absence of riots in the streets as a triumph of American democracy, the picture is not pretty.”
No, it isn’t; however, Clinton is quite right – there has been no violence, any hysteria is confined to the news media and the partisans of both sides and said sides are going to court to try to resolve things in a legal manner. To me, that is not the picture of a “banana republic,” but of a nation committed to democracy. I would also point out the purpose of democratic elections is to determine a nation’s leaders, not please the media and other countries.

“Already corrupted by big money, American politics is now enmeshed in hardball partisan bickering, overzealous litigation and that most American of modern malaises, a round-the-clock national TV soap opera that stops only for the crass commercial needs of ad breaks.”
Big money has corrupted the system, but part of the reason stems from the fact that both parties must raise huge sums of money to pay for TV advertising. The U.S. media covers the elections less today than at any other time in history (source: James Fallows’ How the Media Undermines Democracy), but charges exorbitant fees for election advertising; then its commentators whine about special interests and big money corrupting the process. As for hardball partisan bickering, this has been a characteristic of American politics almost since the inception of the public. The country voted in Jefferson only because Alexander Hamilton convinced the House of Representatives that Jefferson was a lesser evil than Aaron Burr. What some of the northern papers and politicians had to say about Abe Lincoln was as harsh as Southern propaganda. Also, this columnist should read up on the Van Buren-Harrison and Kennedy-Nixon races sometime. As for the comment about litigation: sad but true, but what can one expect from the country that has the most lawyers in the world. As for the remark about the national TV soap opera, the media commentators and politicans may be working themselves up into a frenzy, but in my state of Indiana, people are going about their business and waiting quietly for the results.

“The whole scene has a decidedly Third World aura to it, featuring dynastic politics, questionable counting of ballots, and a refusal by the losers to concede defeat gracefully.”
Other than the Bushes and Kennedys, I am aware of no dynasties operating on the national scene today. Even the Bushes and Kennedys have had to go out and formulate ideas that make them attractive to the voters of their states. I also do not think that a handful of wives succeeding their husbands in Congress constitutes dynastic politics. In most cases, these women have played major roles in their husbands’ campaigns, they are generally known to and trusted by their parties, and they usually have a pretty good grasp of the issues.

“Whereas the Canadian national election is organized and supervised by a federal election commission - independent, non-partisan and neutral - the American presidential and congressional elections are left in partisan hands in 50 states. They, in turn, generally leave it to the counties, as in Florida, where 65 municipal jurisdictions held 65 mini-elections last week.”
The Constitution specifically states that each state may conduct elections however it sees fits. The USA isn’t going to have a national election board without a Constitutional amendment. The states, in turn, leave it to the counties, and that system usually works pretty well. Usually. Granted, our voting machinery is archaic in many districts, but it produced uncontested elections in about 90 percent of the states. I also think a comment by the Canadian writer Michael Slade (a pen name for a team of lawyers) applies: If the Canadian system is better than the American system in some respects, it is because Canada had our system to use as a model, and several decades in which to watch us operate that system. Canada and other democracies may not want to admit it, but they have had a chance to learn both from American successes and from American failures.

“Different states handle disputed ballots differently. The most bizarre arguments surround the punch card ballots featuring a metal stylus that can indent but not perforate. Such local anarchy - a harbinger, perhaps, of things to come under a decentralized Stockwell Day government - was inevitable.”
I don’t find this to be an indication of anarchy, but rather a result of the USA’s federalist system. That system usually works fairly well, and the 2000 election is the first in 112 years to produce this kind of result.

“National elections cannot be a priority at the local level where resources go to sewer lines, the dog pound, the rodeo arena, and lower taxes for the self-centred urban middle class.”
I can’t speak for other states, but it has been my observation that most local election officials in Indiana take elections seriously and try to do the best job possible.

“The problem may go even deeper. After all, civic sense in Canada even at the local level seems high enough for, say, the city of Toronto to invest in a $13.5 million voting system that lost not a single ballot Monday night.”
Goodie for Toronto.

“Only 50 per cent turn out to vote.”
Yes, but this country has no laws requiring people to vote. I also think that much of Americans’ cynicism about the political process results not from the antics of the politicians, but from the piss-poor way the American news media covers issues and elections.

“The illiterate of South Africa manage better. More than 90 per cent turned out in last year’s election and voted more properly.”
I would suggest that South Africans had far more serious matters to resolve than Americans.

“In India, with the world’s largest electorate at 620 million, the election commission dispatches ballots on elephants, camels and mules to remote areas - and gets them back and counts them faster than the folks in the compact counties of Florida.”
It seems to escape this bozo’s notice that the delay in Florida stems from recounting the ballots and getting in all the overseas ballots, not the original count. Which is more important for an election: speed or accuracy?

"As a German daily wrote last week: The American voters are the ``most self-absorbed and least politically interested people, electing the most powerful person in the world.’’
Probably true, but again a major reason for this is a corrupt, profit-hungry, ignorant media.

“Unlike in Canada where a dead candidate means the cancellation of the vote in that riding, a dead Democrat in Missouri got elected. His wife was happy to oblige and take his seat, as in the Third World where widows, daughters or sons walk into dynastic shoes right after the funeral.”
Personally, I like dead people serving in Congress; they can’t vote and can’t initiate legislation. We need to elect a few more corpses. As for the dynastic shoes remark, does this columnist present any proof that those people were bad for their countries?

“In the Third World, losers of elections dispatch thugs to beat up opponents, and unleash rented crowds into the streets to destabilize government. In America, they are hiring lawyers to pummel opponents in crowded courtrooms. And the Republican and Democratic parties are sending out loyal troops to wave placards to TV cameras and mouth the latest propaganda lines from the headquarters.”
This comment is idiotic unless one believes violence is preferable to litigation.

“Ralph Nader, a man of lifelong principles who advanced issues that neither of the two old-line parties would - on environment, election financing, etc. - was booed off the stage as a nuisance, and denied a dime by the monied who had already picked their horses.”
Ralph Nader may be beloved by the leftists in the media, but I think there has been a fair amount of evidence presented that his principles aren’t unblemished.

“The nation that lectures the world on democracy, and dispatches the likes of Jimmy Carter to monitor elections abroad, cannot seem to manage democracy’s most basic exercise. Jimmy should stay home.”
I actually agree with him on this one. However, I would point out that when large numbers of Americans, including myself, suggest this country not meddle in foreign affairs beyond protecting its own interests, we are routinely damned as isolationists. I find it hypocritical that Canada and the democracies of Europe beseech us to intervene in hellholes like Kosovo, Bosnia and Rwanda – countries that present absolutely no threat to the U.S. and where we have no strategic interests – but then criticize our methods when we take action. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

“As for us, we should pray that our rudderless neighbours find their North Star. And we should thank our lucky stars for who we are and where we live.” If an American wrote that, she would be accused of being a simple-minded, jingoist super-patriot who probably wants to bring back slavery and concentration camps.

When Serbia had a serious election crisis, did the Onion run a bunch of articles about Serbia descending into anarchy? No, it didn’t. Why not? Because it would be in bad taste and not funny. The whole point of the current edition of the Onion is the absudity of its articles. It is the complete divorce from reality that makes it funny. No one is seriously considering excuting people from the other party or declaring himself dictator for life. The candidates are manuevering for support from judges and politicians, not soldiers. The whole reason they are both fighting so hard to be declared the winner of this election is because they consider this to be the only way to take power. These do not seem like the signs of a country in decline. I think a lot of the alarm is caused by the misperception that this is a popular vote. It’s really more of a parliamentary system in which there is a separate parliament that exists solely to choose the next president. If the British Parliament were to go over a week without choosing a new Prime Minister, would the world see this as a sign of the impending doom of Britain?

Yes, in fact America is in a downswing… part of it is the fact that the US is dealing with a bloated government that has been squabbled over by the two primary parties, like 2 kids fighting over a toy.

But the election is only a small symptom of what all is wrong with America.

  1. Lack of interest in the bigger picture. The plebs have learned that they can vote themselves bread and circuses.

  2. Lose of the ideal of being an American- In the earlier parts of this century, if someone came here they worked to become an American. Now, Americans are trying to make themselves something they’re not, by hyphenating their culture.

  3. Career politicians- The fact that Mrs. Clinton got elected is a sign that the idea of a government that serves the people has fallen on the wayside.

Well, there are more, but I’m supposed to get to lunch. Ah well. I think that it can be saved, but if it goes on for to long, the only recourse will be blood, and that would be bad.

“Is the USA in Decline…”
Well, yes, I think so.

“…and, if so, How Can We Save It?”
We are going to have to change our focus, from self and mo’ toys and money, to more enduring values.

Anyone remember modesty, charity (of heart, not just receipted rummage donations), honesty, etc. etc.? Gosh, I hope someone does.

Welcome to the board, agatz.

Gee, America has lead the way to the longest sustained growth economy ever. Aside from horrific civil wars, the world is largely at peace, due in no small part to the US and its allies. We happen to have a bad crop of presidential canidates this year, so we had a hard time making up our minds. For that, we are in a horrible decline. Maybe Haroon Siddiqui should move to Cleveland so he could earn a decent amount of money and stop bitching. If you want to talk about the real problem in the States, go to the drug legaliztion thread.

*to The Peyote Coyote *

I’d give you the points for the magority of your answers to the questions posed in the OP. However, in their totality I read an air of complacency that’s a bit of a worry. Of course, I don’t know how general these views you expressed are.

I’m not claiming that the US is in serious decline nor advocating a revolution, perish the thought, but continuing, incremental reform.

The US election situation might be a symptom of a deeper malaise, though it’s too easy to overanalyse it.

The US electoral process has lasted because it’s winner takes all, first past the post methodology typically delivers a single candidate with a clear mandate. Only when the mandate doesn’t eventuate that flaws become apparent. The US could do worse than review the Australian electoral system, amongst others. After all you did adopt our secret ballot process many moons ago.

For example, Australians are quite comfortable with one party winning the magority of votes, but the election being won by the other on the basis of winning more electorates. This situation applied at the most recent Federal Election. Of course, the Australian model is based on proportional representation, preferential voting and a compulsory ballot, none of which the US has previously indicated an interest in adopting. Quite possibly you don’t need any of them.

All electoral systems have flaws and need periodic review. In the last couple of years Italy moved from single member electorates to multiple members, to reduce the potential/incidence of corruption. At the same time Japan is moving from multiple member electorates to single members to, you guessed it, reduce the potential/incidence of corruption.

I expect that this is just a transient phase, though a competitive society doesn’t work at it’s best when it’s a monopoly. A (dodgy) historical analogy would be the decline of Rome after they vanquished Carthage. It is too easy, to fill this psycological need, for an “enemy” to be invented.

The foreign policy risk that I fear is between an increasingly assertive China and a US Presidency that is unconvinced of it’s own legitimacy.

It is quite feasible that in global affairs Beijing will push the envelope on their self interests harder. While it is more likely to be restricted to a trade war, it could become hotter over an issue like Taiwan. Neither would be a good development for us antipodeans.

The media frenzy, here and around the world, is embarassing. For an institution that is coming to realize that it is not a mirror of current events, but an agent as well, the media is slow to take responsibility for that role.

Here is a much calmer appraisal of the situation by Dan Small, a regular columnist on MSNBC. As he correctly points out, litigation is not a sympton of the electoral process going wrong, but a predertimined venue of appeals for arbitration.

The U.S. would probably benefit from something like a federal elections commission, and certain idiocies like the butterfly ballot should have been ditched the last time they caused thousands of vote to be disqualified, but one shouldn’t be tempted to see the current election as the end of the republic. Any system of the magnitude of the U.S. presidential election will have close calls like we’re having now, where a photo-finish becomes necessary, and narrow judgements decide the winner. Ultimately, whoever is president will be president not by clearly winning the election, but by exploiting some minor trick that puts them a hair ahead, and the losers will cry loudly that elections should not hinge upon such things. Well, they do and they will, no matter how the election is structured, when it comes down to a borderline case like this. To those who blame the electoral college, remember that the candidates knew about it and campaigned to win it; the popular vote says nothing about what would have happened in a direct election.

What’s the saying among laywers? “Extreme cases make for bad case law.” Something like that. A system that works 99% of the time works pretty damn well, I’d say.

BTW, I’m Canadian, and our electoral system is nothing to brag about, when one of our major parties is dedicated to the breakup of the country it’s supposed to help govern.

Thanks, BigDaddyD, for the welcome. Am an ‘Arsian’ but there may be more adults here! :Þ

It could well be argued that the USA is doing fine; a lot of middle class people have a lot of toys as well as retirement funds for their future security, and statistics reflect their economic wellness. Such is their current number and strength, they have become the societal norm.

I have lately set myself to combatting this notion of ‘all is well’, of ‘do as I do and you might make it, too’, ‘just work harder’, ‘get more college education’, etc. What a myth! What an insult to hard-working, intelligent, principled lower-income and alternative life-style Americans!

Gardening, recycling, practicing frugality in general, taking time to relax and to think should be respected and supported. Homelessness, poverty, and all the ‘abuses’ should be faced, fought, and conquered.

Partisan politics is only a symptom. Scratching the glitter of the surface reality of America reveals the rust and maggots of greed, dishonesty, prejudice and bigotry; and the decline in the USA is a decline in moral values, IMO.

@]–]--

I for one would like to disavow the comments made by the Canadian in the OP. If you ask me, our system is FAR more corrupt and favors incumbents far more than does the U.S. system.

For those not familiar with some of the wacky ways of Canadians:

[ul]
[li]The Prime Minister can call an election pretty much any time he wants, within some wide guidelines. Thus, when the main opposition party recently elected a charismatic new leader, the government called an election immediately, before the opposition could organize an effective national campaign.[/li][li]Our Prime Minister just admitted two days ago that he pressured a national bank into giving a loan to a buddy of his, to pay for a property in which he had a personal interest. No one seemed to care.[/li][li]When a local politician is elected, he immediately is forced to toe the party line. If he comes out against his own party, they’ll throw him out and he’ll lose his seat. So all local politicians follow the party line. And the party follows the Prime Minister. Which means he’s about as close to an elected dictator as you can get while he is in power.[/li][li]Our budgetary process is heavily affected by political expediency. The U.S. system is set up so that the election happens long before the incumbent can submit his budget. Here in Canada, we have a situation where the opposition party is gaining rapidly in the polls because they promise tax cuts. Our government’s response? A ‘mini-budget’ released just before the election, in which the government promises instant tax relief in the form of cheques directly to the citizens. Guess when those cheques are scheduled to arrive? The week before the election.[/li][li]I see absolutely no evidence that our procedures for elections are any better than those in the U.S. I’ve seen video of your election process, and it is indistinguishable from ours. We walk in, get a ballot, walk behind a cardboard box, and submit our choice. I’ve used both punch cards and optical cards where you fill in a little circle beside the candidate you choose. The ballots then go into a metal locked box, and are counted by hand or by machine, depending on the size of the voting area.[/li]
The only reason we’re talking about punch cards and chads in the U.S. is because you guys had an amazing election in which the outcome rides on just a few hundred votes. That’s got to be a one-in-a million event. If we had an election that close, you’d see just as much partisan bickering and ballot manipulation as you have there.
[/ul]

Actually, I’m very impressed by the rule of law in the U.S. Sure, there are partisans in positions of power on both sides (Harris, Butterworth). But both of them have had their decisions overturned by various courts, and now the Supreme Court of Florida will make the final decision. From what I’ve heard, that court gets high marks for fairness and sound judgement.

THIS is how great democracies solve election disputes. In the end, one of these guys will be president without a shot being fired. Once there, he’d better submit to the will of the people, or he’ll be gone in four years. In the meantime, the House and Senate will shut him down in gridlock and prevent him from doing anything radical.

Sounds fine to me.

So we happened to have a very close election. So close that
we have to wait for all the absentee ballots to come in and be counted, and make sure that every countable “chad” is counted. We’re not a laughingstock. We’re handling it.

Please excuse us for rattling your cage, kind Sir.
And thank you again for so graciously allowing us ignorant, heathen, foreign scum access to good American bandwidth. We’ll try and disturb you no more.

Damn straight.