It did. His overall point was that while it’s incorrect to say “black people are dangerous” it is accurate to say “black people are more likely to be dangerous than white people”. And similar for many other stereotypes.
So it’s accurate to say “Jews are more likely to be greedy and deceitful than non-Jews”? And “Polish people are more likely to be stupid than non-Poles”? If those (and likely many others) aren’t included among the “many”, then what’s the point, exactly?
When the numbers for the “dangerous” (in that particular stereotype) are so miniscule, the harm of such stereotypes strike me as far, far more significant than any usefulness from them.
I don’t understand your question. You seem to be saying that “many” is practically the same thing as “all” - otherwise I can’t figure out what you’re saying.
I’m saying that if your (or puddleglum’s) point is that some stereotypes might be based on a slight shred of truth or fact, then that’s a trivial and entirely useless point about stereotypes. That they’re mostly based on bullshit and bigotry is a much more useful point, I think.
I think the point is that the “many” is also both wrong and harmful. You seem to think that “a few” is the same as “many.”
OK.
I don’t think you can cancel out a valid point by saying that a different point is much more useful. (Also, that you’re exaggerating in saying “some stereotypes might be based on a slight shred …”.)
Not so. I think “many” is correct.
I don’t think so, but I doubt we’ll change each other’s minds.
So, not all black men are dangerous, just “many”? Now all jews are greedy, just “many”?
You’ve misunderstood the exchange.
The “many” vs “all” exchange was about whether many stereotypes are based on some truth versus all stereotypes being based on some truth. It was not about whether “many” stereotyped people fit any given stereotype versus “all” fitting.
Oh, that’s part’s easy. All stereotypes are based on some truth.
Are black men dangerous. Well, there was at least one dangerous black guy, so yes.
Are black men helpful, generous and kind? Well, there was at least one black man who is helpful generous and kind, so yes.
Are jews greedy. Well there was at least one greedy jew, so yes.
Are jews philanthropists? Well, there is at least on jew who is a philanthropist, so yes.
Are white people rich and over privileged? Well, there’s at least one white guy who is rich and over privileged, so yes.
So, unless a stereotype is made up with no one in the demographic having ever done the stereotypical behavior, then they are based on some element of truth, even if flimsy.
This is why stereotypes are completely useless for informing you on the future behavior of any person, or really even any group of people. You could really take any behavior at all, and assign it as a stereotypical behavior for a group of people.
Black people are, and historically have been, marginalized. They have fewer resources. They’ve been rendered less employable. They have, to a considerable extent, been physically contained in concentrated areas, thus there are neighborhoods where a disproportionately high percent of the residents have ALL been socially marginalized with fewer resources and low employment. So, poverty. There is need and a paucity of ways of addressing that need legitimately. Some people in that environment steal things, some rob other people, in response to that situation. So the environment has a lot of crime and is dangerous. People in dangerous environments are more exposed to violence and thus become more wary and vigilant and defensive, and find it necessary to resort to violence to defend themselves more often than people who don’t live in such environments.
The ones who do resort to stealing or robbery are more likely to be dangerous.
The ones who don’t but who live in that environment are also somewhat more likely to be dangerous.
The male people in that environment, for a variety of reasons, tend to be more dangerous than the female people.
Someone makes a generalization, ignoring the background reasons and causative factors: “black men are (more) dangerous (than comparison groups non-black men, black women, non-black women)”. As a generalization it isn’t inaccurate. It is a politically loaded generalization (leaving out the causative factors tends to imply that dangerousness is some kind of innate characteristic of black male people) and I think that is what you are reacting to. Unpack it.
Jewish people for a long stretch of time in European countries were not allowed to own land. They could not farm. They were a people at risk of being cast out officially or driven out in bursts of sudden violence. Oddly, one occupation forbidden by Christian churches to their own people was money-lending and the charging of interest, yet there was no protracted attempt to prevent non-Christian people from doing so — perhaps because there was a need for the behavior? When your people are prevented from a common method of supporting themselves and another is available on a nearly-exclusive basis to them, they’re likely to avail themselves of it. Other available occupations involved being merchants or providers of paid services. When combined with a vulnerability requiring a diligent attention to scraping up currency and keeping some on hand in case of a sudden need to become mobile, this can all generate interactional behaviors that get described as “greedy”.
So someone makes a generalization, ignoring the background reasons and causative factors: “Jewish people are always trying to make a profit, they’re more concerned with money than other people”. Again, as a generalization it wasn’t inaccurate, but it does, again, yield a politically loaded interpretation when the causitive factors are left out of the equation.
I am a member of a few categories of out-groups and marginalized people for whom disparaging social images exist. I’m well aware of how harmful stereotypes and prejudicial thinking can be. But unpack these things. You’re not on a slippery slope.
When one person or group has an animus against another group they take what is true and use it to create a caricature of that group. Why don’t people who hate jews do so because they are a violent people always trying to beat up innocent gentiles? It is not like there is a wheel of stereotypes and it just happened to land on greedy for jews, violent for blacks, and nerdy for asians, and it just luck that the stereotype isn’t violent for Jews, greedy for asians, and nerdy for blacks.
The truth is that Jews are better with money than gentiles, black people are more likely to be violent, and asians are more studious. If you are so inclined you can find these qualities admirable but if you are inclined to hate those groups you can twist them into negatives.
When I was a child the stereotype of Mexicans was that they were lazy but now who hates Mexicans for being lazy? They are now thought of as being a threat to jobs because they are so hardworking. The stereotype did not cause racists to hate Mexicans they hated Mexicans and looked for reasons to do so, in the past because they were lazy and now because they are too industrious.
Stereotypes are almost useless in predicting the behavior of individuals but potentially useful in predicting the behavior of groups. How much would you bet me that blacks will outnumber hispanics in next years NBA draft? How much that asians will be arrested for fewer murders next year than their proportion of the population, or that Starbucks will sell more Pumpkin Spice lattes to white girls than black men?
Here’s a challenge make a testable prediction that contradicts a widely held stereotype.
Stereotypes, when widely held and widely reinforced, are even more useful in promoting notions of superiority and inferiority to justify brutality. That’s where the stereotype of black people as animalistic brutes came from, not statistics – the stereotype, in this case, long preceded any facts like statistical disparities (in which case we can rightly ask whether the disparities are, at least in part, due to the past brutality, other forms of mistreatment, and related ways that society treats people differently).
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
Treat someone like they are smart long enough and they will act like they are smart.
Treat someone like they are a criminal, and they will rise to that expectation.
If the stereotype is that blacks are better at basketball, and so Hispanics are overlooked for those positions, then you are probably correct. This would be true even if Hispanics were better, because the stereotype is reinforcing itself.
Asians may be committing more crimes than their proportion of the population, but if you aren’t expecting that, then they won’t be caught and arrested proportiante to their rate of commission of crime.
Got nothin on the pumpkin spice, unless you are saying that white girls have no sense of taste.
I hired 3 black employees, even though the widely held stereotype is that they show up late, are lazy, get in fights, steal, and cause problems. They show up on time every day, don’t fight with anyone, don’t steal, and do a wonderful job.
Stereotypes are not self reinforcing if they are wrong. In the 1930s and 1940s the stereotype about basketball players were they were Jewish. As more blacks got opportunity to play and were allowed to go to college, blacks took over and no one thinks of basketball players as jewish anymore. If hispanics were as good at basketball as black people as a group then any basketball coach who wanted to win would have them on their team.
The idea that asian people are getting away with massive amounts of crime is crazy. Police actually interview crime victims and ask them about who committed the crime. If asians were committing crimes, the police would know.
The PSL thing is a stereotype about white girls and it got to be a stereotype not because it was decided at random but because people noticed that white girls love pumpkin spice lattes.
Your prediction is about three individuals not about a group. As I mentioned stereotypes are not very useful in predicting individuals but describe groups somewhat accurately. If your prediction is that the stereotype of black men is incorrect than that should be reflected in statistics like workforce participation rates, hours works, arrest rates, and number of firings.
And we often perceive patterns where they absolutely DO exist.
My view is that most stereotypes are based on peoples own empirical observations. Based on something real. Now these observations are not scientific, they can and do lead people astray, but it’s not wrong to notice that men tend to be more physically violent than women.
Such observations apply to racial differences as well, but the history and negative results of such speculation have been so awful we create this barrier and taboo over any discussions that relate to behavioral and cognitive differences on the average between racial groups. Better to assume the civil societal truce that nature allows for zero differences in aptitude between populations, but does completely in average height, skin tone, and innumerable other variable physical traits.
Back to the OP, I don’t have a problem with stereotypes existing in the minds of men, because I think they are natural and impossible to remove, and are often based on something real. I do have a problem when those stereotypes are put to use in the real world in a “judgment” of a member of a particular group based on the perceived characteristics of the group.
I have to fight this in myself. I have a viciously negative view of Islam, so I have to use the executive functions in my brain to go out of my way to not treat visibly muslim people I see around town different if I interact directly. Talking about women covered head to toe with only the face and hands uncovered.
And for those jumping on ME for this rotten impulse, look inward and ask yourself how you would react to someone in a KKK uniform? But that is based on their history and ideas? And what is Islam? Plenty of History and a collection of ideas, perhaps some people are not fond of that idea set? No? Only you are allowed to be hostile to idea sets? Only your list is ok?
Women play more games than men.