To me, existance, the Universe, whatever has just the opposite effect. To me it ‘proves’ that there is no god, that it all DID just happen by coincidence, etc. I guess its all in how you look at it.
-XT
I have an equally hard time knowing how people could believe he does exist.
I know that seems like a blanket disagreement, but there is a point to it -
The believers cannot comprehend his non-existence or that it is possible to be an unbeliever. The Unbelievers cannot comprehend his existence or understand how it is possible to believe so strongly.
yea, i guess. But to me, it’s like trying to imagine a time before there was no universe–just nothingness; or a time when there will be no universe. I can imagine it for a split second, then my brain quits. I think there has to be something else. Infinite #'s of universes, or just this one expanding and sucking back in infinitly, maybe. Maybe this universe is just an atom in another universe. Obviously I don’t know. Any cool ideas?
-gunner
I know what you mean Lobsang, and your point makes complete sense, I honestly don’t expect to convince anyone. Whatever it is that makes me believe, doesn’t mean anyone else has to see the same things in the same way, however frustrating that may be.
Guess thats just part of this whole human thing 
sorry, I’m not sure how to quote, it’s probably right in front of me though
Happy to oblige…
or
Sure, read the Dark Tower series by Stephen King. But, like in Kings world, I think the top-most room of the Tower is empty…and always was.
I think this answer is different for everyone…in other words, there really isn’t a right answer to this question. I have no problem with folks that ‘believe’…my wife and most of my family are ‘believers’ of the Catholic variety. I respect their beliefs…and ask them to respect mine (they aren’t always real good about this, but they are coming along).
When I look at the Universe, to me I see the logic and the symmetry (cosmology, evolution, geology, physics, on and on)…and it doesn’t require a magic god or mysteries to come to pass. The magic and the mystery is IN the Universe, not in an entity that is supposedly all powerful and created the thing. To me, such an explaination cheapens it all…sort of the same way I feel when folks go on and on about aliens building the pyramids and taking away from mans accomplishment. In this case, it takes away (for me) from the grand nature of the Universe itself.
But thats just my opinion…I could be wrong.
-XT
Sorry, the Dark Tower thing was to Gunner about his atom example.
-XT
[QUOTE=Lobsang]
I have an equally hard time knowing how people could believe he does exist.QUOTE]
You said “he”. Sounds like your closet ‘God’ believer. Seriously though, I think of it like this: If there is no God and I spend my life believing that there is, then it’s no big deal. I lose nothing. I’m not a bible thumper and “faith sharer”, but believing that I [we] have a purpose, however marginal, gives me more incintive to do good things with my life. And if it turns out that God does exist, than it would hopefully be of some benefit. Sounds selfish i guess, but it’s how I approach the situation nonetheless. This is basically a two sided coin: either there is a God or there isn’t. There’s really no ‘proof’ to ague either way. It comes down to a matter of belief. If your sense of reason is stronger than your sense of belief, which unfortuantely sometimes applies to me, than I doubt that God (hypothetical), the creator of intelliegence would look down upon that.
The most accurate statement ever has to be: ‘ignorace is bliss’
I definately agree with you, XT. I don’t see God as an enormous magical ‘man’ that builds stuff. I see life as ‘moving matter’, and the matter part is obvious, we know where it comes from. But it’s the thing that moves it which leads me to believe that we have a connection to something else. Matter exists with or without life. However, life depends on matter for everything. My question is: where/what does life come from?
As Carl Sagon put it, we are ‘star stuff’…i.e. the building blocks of life are all around us out there. Given enough billions of years and knowing how chemical reactions work, it makes perfect sense to me…its elegant and majestic, though I suppose if you are looking for purpose this explaination fails there. To me, life is a beautiful ‘accident’ that I feel is fairly common out there…but SENTIENT life…now THAT is something thats definitely rare and precious…and just as much of an accident.
Like the million monkeys with type writers, given a million years (or more) eventually you’ll get Shakespere.
-XT
I know you are joking, but I’d just like to defend this… It’s a habit from when I did believe (before I was independent intelligent enough to question the existence of a god, and then stop believing) Just like the other habits I still have of saying “Oh God” and “For god’s sake” I come from a country where God is a word, more than a being or concept.
I have no argument with that. In fact you might live a better life for believing in God, even if he/it doesn’t exist.
If only all believers were like you. (not being sarcastic there. We [some of us anyway] atheists see religion as a problem because of the way people follow it. Not using it to make themselves better and do good for all, but using it as an excuse to destroy and discriminate others)
I would say you are fortunate to have a stronger sense of reason than belief not unfortunate, but then, I am an atheist. You might be an agnostic (unless you have no doubt that God exists. Your words seem to suggest you’re not sure, in which case you are agnostic)
Again, I agree with you and understand your outlook. I do know that if everyone saw things from this perspective, life would probably be much more enjoyable for everyone. Mainly bc lives wouldn’t be wasted in vain trying to achieve eternal life. If everyone accepted this life as all there is, i think there wouldn’t be chaos. I’m sure many theologians would strongly disagree. But the way i see it, I never asked to exist in the first place, let alone for all of eternity. I think nonexistence is probably more comfortable than eternal existence. Even as a kid i looked at ‘heaven’ skeptically. To me the idea seems uncomfortable; you get to heaven, great God and former family members, then what do you do for infinity? I’m sure many ‘heaven’ fanatics could give me all kinds of ideas, but how does anyone really know?
just realized my last two past had contraticting ‘beliefs’. this tends to happen with me. just disreguard on the of two.
-gunner
I would say you are fortunate to have a stronger sense of reason than belief not unfortunate, but then, I am an atheist. You might be an agnostic (unless you have no doubt that God exists. Your words seem to suggest you’re not sure, in which case you are agnostic)
Lobsang:
I am on the fence with this issue so I guess I am agnostic. I always thought agnostic was just a cleaner word for athiest. I went to catholic schools and ‘athiest’ was probably the worst word a person could say.
thanks for the insight.
-gunner
For those that say there must be a god because everything is so impressive
Well, humans are not gods, right? And yet we are capable of some pretty amazing feats. Often using very very simple tools and an ideas.
It might only be a matter of time before humans will have created artificially inteligent robots. Imagine if that happens, and then all the humans disappear from knowledge and existence - Will the robots believe a God created them?
An agnostic is someone who is on the fence…or as I like to think of it, is reserving judgement, not having all the facts one way or the other. I’m probably a full fledged athiest these days, but I still think of myself as an agnostic. I was raised a Catholic in a hispanic family btw…a family who is VERY religious. My wife is a Catholic still, and so is HER family (though she is probably closing in on being an agnostic herself these days…I’m a bad influence :)).
-XT
Due to this board I have aquired the opposite idea of agnosticism - that it is almost theism. That to be agnostic is to believe God probably exists, or to assume he exists, but not to be sure of it. To be unable to truthfully say “I am convinced in his existence”
Another problem with Pascal’s Wager is that it presumes a binary choice when such is not the case. He’s really limiting the options to monotheism and atheism, leaving out polytheism, pantheism, non-theistic models like Buddhism or Janism, Animism, even ancestor worship. There is no safe choice. Not even monotheism is truly safe. What if you believe in the wrong god?
I’ve seen some of the other standard canards in this thread, such as the assertion that it can’t be proven that God did not create the univeres. True, but it also can’t be proven that elves did not create the universe or the IPU or an infinite number of other hypothetical possibilities, none of them with a shred more evidence than “God.”
Defying people to disprove wild hypotheticals, especially when those hypotheticals are ill-defined, contrary to the known laws of the universe, and utterly lacking in empirical support is hardly a convincing argument.
Also, to rimshotgdansk, identifying God as “spirit” does not really address the argument as to God’s materiality because the word “spirit” is utterly meaningless from an empirical standpoint. What is “spirit?” What is it made of? Is it energy. Energy is material, tangible detectable? What distinguishes “spirit” from nothingness? Do you see what I mean? It’s an undefinable term.
To the OP: The bottom line is that there is no evidence whatever for “God” and nothing in the observable universe that would necessitate such a hypothesis. This not absolute proof that God does not exist but it’s also impossible to prove that leprechauns don’t exist.
You only have to look at fractal pictures to see what can be done with simple accidental mathematics. (I’d link to one but the site where I am viewing them requires registration)
The world, people, emotions are just an extension of that (in my atheistic opinion), grown to a level of apparent beauty given a vast amount of time.
I felt sorry for a chap I knew once .
He was an insomniac , dyslexic agnostic.
He used to lie awake at night , wondering if there really was a Dog.
If there is a God , he’d only be a little bit older than that joke.