Is there a God??/???

Do I believe in a God? Yes.

Why? Because it is most logical, it is illogical to believe that this Universe is an accident, and if there is no God then that’s what it has to be, because a God denotes a “purpose”.

In fact, God and purpose are interchangeable in ways.

But my argument, never deals with my belief? Why? Because I found an argument that pretty much shows that arguing this is very pointless.

Let’s refrain from calling God, “God”.

From now on God will be called Clouds…ok?

And we are no longer “People debating God”… from now on people will be called Blindmen ok?

In this world, the blindmen are debating whether or not there are clouds. It is theoretically possible that there are such things.

See, the blindmen are bewildered as to where rain comes from. No matter how high they go, they can’t seem to “touch” the “bucket” or such. Some theorize that the rain just falls from up, and that’s all. Others believe there has to be some vessel holding the water, and other say that the water itself is floating up there in a “cloud”.

A cloud being a state of water that is not tangible, thus why the blindmen can’t find it.

No matter how hard these blindmen debate, they will never accomplish anything.

Because no matter how much the idea of there being a bucket seems right, those who believe in clouds and nothingess will refute it by saying, “Then where’s the bucket?”

No matter how much the idea of there being a cloud seems right, those who support the idea of buckets and nothingness will always refute it by claiming that clouds, is illogical. The bucket believers will say, if you let go of water from your hand it falls down, so it can not float way up high. The nothingness believers would say that it doesn’t matter, water falls for ever from an endless source of “highness”, and that there are no buckets or clouds anyways.

And no matter how much the idea of nothingness seems right, those believing in buckets and clouds, would claim that there has to be something. Where does the water come from?

The debate becomes even more involved in fact. Because both the cloud and bucket believers claim that what was written to them long ago about there being “Beings that claimed they could see”, they think that that itself gives them justficication. Each being capable of sight saying that there exists what they want to believe exists. Nothingness believers say this is hogwash, no one can see, there is nothing to see, that sight is not even conceivable to them. As really, in all their societies, sight itself is a much debated concept. Do the items that have form, also have some kind of aspect that could be perceived with out touching or smelling or hearing or tasting? But that’s another debate.

And all these debates will go on indefinately for much obvious reasons.

In case this analogy is not obvious enough I will give a brief summary.

People, debating God, is like blindmen debating clouds.

You can’t as far as we define God, touch, smell, see, hear, or taste him/it/she. Just as blindmen can not see clouds.

You can’t reason his existance. Just as blindmen can not reason the existance of a bucket or cloud, or the lack there-of.

All you can do is choose a belief and stick by it. And indeed, that is the analogy of the bucket and nothingness and clouds, the bucket is one form of God, say Allah. The cloud is another form, say YWHW. And nothingness is Atheism.

And the beings that can see are Angels.

I hope this analogy has been enlightening to you.

I am quite proud of it, I don’t know if someone before me has ever come up with something similar but I did come up with this all on my own just now, from a smaller version I told someone else when they claimed, “I don’t see God so why should I believe in him?”

I told him, if you were blind your whole life, and everyone else was the same, would you disbelieve in clouds?

He of course then got angry proving to me he was an idiot. :rolleyes:

I also feel it is Ironic, that so many in this world would now say that there are no clouds…but yet, those of us who can see know otherwise. :wink:

The problem with your analogy The_Broken_Column, IMO, is that there are other ways to measure and verify ‘clouds’ than by sight alone. Unless these theoretical folks have NO other means to ‘observe’ the universe except sight (i.e. they have no science at all), they could verify the ‘clouds’ easily enough through meterological data, etc…i.e. they could do it through science as ‘clouds’ have a measurable impact on the world. ‘God’ however does not. There is no way to measure ‘god’. No way to quantify ‘god’, observe ‘god’. Certainly you could make the assertion (which I guess you ARE making) that our science is just not advanced enough to allow us to observe or ‘see’ ‘god’. The same could be said for DtC’s theoretical leprechauns, or my own personal favorite from Carl Sagons Demon Haunted World, Invisible Pink Unicorns in our garages.

-XT

You mean this forum? Predominantly atheist? I would wager there is a higher percentage of atheists here than the general population, but it’s far from predominant.

There isn’t any “rain.” Your “blindmen” are arguing about the source of the rain. They are looking for an explanation of a real phenomenon. In the case of “God,” there is nothing anlagous to your rain. There is no mystery phenomenon which requires an explanation. “God” is simply a random hypothesis which is not required to explain anything in the universe. It’s an answer without a question.

This is vintage atheism-thiest argument. “If we could only measure and verify this ‘God’”, is what the skeptics say. “God need not show himself, for we know he exists”, is the rebuttal from the believers(any denomination).

I doubt that I will ever be satisfied siding with either. Excellent analogy, ‘the broken column’, nonetheless.
-gunner

Actually, DtC said it better with this:

There IS no phenomenon which REQUIRES a god explaination. My own explaination was more vague and confused on inspection…this pretty well says it all.

-XT

“‘God’ is simply a random hypothesis which is not required to explain anything in the universe. It’s an answer without a question.”

not neccessarily. God is an answer(to theist) to the ultimate question: “why are we here?”

sorry, that was Diogenes the Cynic that i quoted.
-gunner

First things first, xtisme, there would be no science as we know it in the world of the blind.

At most I would think they’d only have math and philosophy, but little application of math.

Our society is completely built around sight, the meteorological data you are talking about, comes in the form of sight. How would you construct an instrument to do tests if you don’t know what to “look” for?

It is not hard for blind people in our society to exist, because those with sight are able to adapt our world to theirs through brail and such. And they are able to adapt to our world through aid from other people with eyes.

But in the world of the blind there is no such primary infrastructure, so it would never be formed to begin with.

Well I’m dwelling on this too much, if you think about it you can see how the science we take for granted, wouldn’t exist at all without sight.

…the Cynic.

There is an analogy to the rain, I just thought it was so obvious it slipped my mind.

The rain is your existance, this universe, all things that are that we can not yet explain.

Where do we come from as “questioning beings” not as life itself.?

Where does this Universe come from?

That is the question of the rain.

They feel rain, we feel our being, and we observe the heavens.

They ask, where does the rain come from, we ask where does existance come from?

For you to state, “God is an answer with out a question” is … sorry to say … one of the most foolish things I have ever heard.

God is the why, as much as it is the how.

I always state, “Science is the what, God is the how and why.”

Science explains more than how something happens, what something does.

With science you can predict this or that, but like Gravity, we can’t always explain how it works. We have theories, but that is it.

God often places, regardless of why you think so, fills the gaps of how and why.

Why especially, because it is the question why that science can not answer.

Why are we here?

A question which incorrectly presumes that there must be a reason for human existence…

Not that there must be, but there may be…

BC,

you are operating under the false assumption that the existence of the universe requires an explanation. It does not. There is no reason it can’t just be a fluke, the result of a random fluxuuation in the quantum field resulting in the big bang. There doesn’t have to be a “why?” Existence is not analogous to your allegorical rain.

You would have to explain why the universe can’t just be a random fluke. You would have to show at what point a supernatural entity is required to explain or sustain your own existence.

The Universe can be completely explained without recourse to fairies. Why should we postulate any?

Everyone believes there is purpose to life, even Atheists.

If anyone here wants to truly prove they do not believe there is purpose to life, then prove it right now by killing yourselves.

I think it is safe to say that though I may be wrong in many things, I am right on this one logical argument.

This is getting increasingly tortured IMO.

Why? And what does this prove in any case. Ancient peoples thought that thunder was from ‘gods’. Do you still believe this? We’ve moved on from such superstitions explainations.

Again, why? Again, what does this prove?

Not true at all. Are you pre-supposing that an entire race who is naturally blind can have no science? That they can’t formulate devices that they CAN read just as easily as we can formulate ones we can?? How would I construct such a device?? Well, I’m not naturally blind, but I can think of several ways using touch as the medium for ‘displaying’ results. This is getting woolly though. The analogy fails man…‘rain’ and ‘clouds’ are physical manifestations that can be observed, reguardless if its by sight or not. God, however, is patently not, nor, as DtC pointed out, is there some ‘hole’ in our science that requires a god explaination.

Again, you are overly complicating all this in a desire to make this analogy work. Its more simple than this. Say that your theoretical people have no science and are just superstitions ignorant savages. What does that prove? That they HAVE no science and so anything they come up with is pure fantasy. If they DO have science, then there they can pretty much determine something that is an observable and physical manifestation…no worries, and no ‘hole’ either. Moving on to us, we DO have science…and there are no ‘holes’ that require a god explaination. Do you see? :slight_smile:

-XT

This one statement of yours alone also strengthens another theory of mine, that Atheists tend to hide behind science, without actually knowing much science. You can blab about Quantum fields all you want but it doesn’t mean it supports that “there is no need for God”. (actually it is braine the definition of quantum is pretty much just a whole number. What you are talking about is the theory of two braines colliding, however this is getting far stretched because we are proving more and more that the Universe does not oscillate, which means that there was a beginning of “everything”.)

Anyways, this is analogous to the fact that I stated, when a “nothingest” says that the rain just falls. The cloudists and bucketests say that “where does the rain come from?”

The Universe, is falling rain.

Is it infinite? Falling from some endless expanse, or does it come from a cloud or bucket?

Science, will probably never answer any of those…contrary to as you claim.

XT, “The Universe can be completely explained without recourse to fairies. Why should we postulate any?”

Because in our near past, we did not know what we know today. So we made stuff up. This still, does not rule out ‘God’. The fact that we have the inclination to make stuff up could be argued as ‘evidence’.

“To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
-your man Carl Sagan

btw i started reading the Demon Haunted World last week and so far so good. He absolutely hammers psuedosciences…

Think again.

I can believe that my life is simply a random fluke of the universe. I’m just one more insignificant, pointless monkey on a pointless speck of dust in a pointless universe. There is absolutely no designed “purpose” for my existence.

At the same time, I can decide that as long as I’m here, I might as well stay for a while. That doesn’t mean that my life has any higher purpose than whatever I choose to give it. There is definitely no requirement for “God.”

That was DtC btw gunner…not me. :slight_smile: He’s probably offended by you giving me credit for something he said.

I never said it ‘ruled out god’ btw…I merely said that ‘god’ is not required for any explainations, and therefor, using Occams Razor, the simplest explaination (for ME) is that there IS no god. But I doubt anyone is making the claim that science ‘rules out god’.

I like Carl Sagon too…and I think DHW should be required reading in school.

-XT

oh, my bad dtc…

The question about “infinity” is meaningless when applied to the universe. Time is a property of the universe itself. There was no “before” to the universe. For all practical purposes, yes, the universe is infinite.

The universe is not rain. I’m soirry but your analogy is flawed. The universe is not a mystery which requires a supernatural explanation. To put it in context of your allegory, there is nothing that we can’t see. We know where the rain is coming from, or at least we have a damn good idea.