This is the first fucking time i feel like my questions are being answered. Okay, so the bible isn’t anything “divine” to you. My next question (just straight and to the point answers please)
Genetic similarities have been found in psychopaths, rapist, child molesters and abusive men. How do you feel homosexual genetic similarities are different?
Psychopaths, abusive men, and pedophiles are not comparable, and your suggestion that they are shows your lack of education. None of the three things you have compared to gay people are ways that actually function. Psychopaths et al are all unable to function within society. They all are removed from society by their actions and are not able to function with anyone on a real human level.
The same cannot be said of gay men and women who form relationships, create a community, and have rich, fulfilling lives, just like anyone else. You want to see pathology where there isn’t any.
I’m speaking about genetics ONLY. Oh and psychopaths have been known to get along with each other quite will. But to the subject. Society doesn’t view them as the same because they cause harm……homosexuals don’t. But we’re talking genetics here, Hastur……not ethics. So what do you feel the difference is when it comes to the “born that way” view? Can child molesters use that same argument for why they do the things they do? The same goes with abusive husbands, can they use that argument?
I’m just going to pop in here for a brief second. Is it even worth asking where it has been shown that
Aside from the same genetic similarities that exist between, say construction workers and accountants?
Rook:
Here are a couple of links from gay Christian organizations which have no problem reconciling their religious beliefs with their homosexuality or the sexual orientation of others:
Whosoever: An Online Magazine For Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual and TG Christians
The Bible and Homosexuality
Yer pal,
Satan
*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, three weeks, five days, 5 hours, 51 minutes and 30 seconds.
8369 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,046.22.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, 25 minutes.
David B used me as a cite!*
Pedophelia has always been shown to be an issue of nurture.
Pedophiles have always been abused by someone in their past.
Generally the abuse has taken place over a long period of time, which is why the abused becomes the abuser because they believe that it is normal.
PS… why the hell do you care if it is nurture or nature? As you aren’t gay and your gay ‘friends’ only seem to be of a distant nature, why is this your obsession?
Rook where are you going with this?
Suppose for the sake of argument, I concede you the following points:
**1) There is no gay gene. Homosexuality is purely a matter of choice.
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Homosexuals have no right to invoke genetics, in-utero influencess or upbringing as an explanation for their behaviour.
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Homosexuality is entirely unnatural, of no benefit to a species, and has some health risks associated with it.
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Homosexual behaviour is unambiguously condemned in the Bible as being against the will of God.**
If I grant you these, what is your point? What do you want?
You have stated repeatedly that you’re not a religious fanatic. Does that mean that you’re not a Bible literalist? You don’t seem to be from your previous posts.
If you’re a Bible literalist, then there’s no point in having this discussion. There’s no way for us to disprove the authority of your information, and no way for you to make us to accept the authority of your information. And to answer your question, a practising homosexual who is a Bible literalist and accepts point (4) is a hypocrite.
If you’re not a Bible literalist, then you accept that interpretation and selection is allowed. Homosexuals can put biblical proscriptions against homosexuality in the trash with the creation myth and the Flood and the 900-year-old guys. You may feel their selection is wrong and self-serving, but everybody’s selection w.r.t. the Bible is self-serving! (After all, you’re a self-confessed fornicator here, right?) Anyway, the validity of the Bible and the validity of point (4) are whole threads in themselves and have probably been done before, repeatedly.
So let’s kick out point (4) as being undebatable. That leaves the other three. All of which apply to many other human activities - drinking alcohol, waterski-ing, oral sex. Why single out homosexuality? Why aren’t you asking if waterskiers have any more right to “defend” their behaviour with genetic arguments than psychopaths have? Why should homosexuals have to defend their unnatural doings but waterskiers are left alone?
You have recently brought up the topic of morality, and asked where people get their concept of morality from, and where society’s concept of morality is going. A good deal of western society’s ethics have indeed been shaped by the Bible and the various Christian Churches, and IMO a huge amount of harm has resulted. A very large part of what is regarded as immoral is concerned with our bodies - we have tremendous hang-ups about nudity, and sex, and relationships and I think it’s great that the old “ethics” are being eroded under scrutiny and replaced with empathy and rationality. Will this lead to beastiality being socially acceptable in 20 years time? Maybe, I don’t know. I find the idea icky to say the least, but ickiness is no criterion to judge morality. If you want to reach down and give that dog humping your leg a helping hand, go right ahead - I’m not going to condemn you for it.
Satan:
Thanks for providing those links. I once corresponded a bit with a pastor once who writes for ”Whosoever: An Online Magazine…”, and apparently it’s a very high-quality publication. It’s an excellent resource for the GLBT community.
”Whosoever…” has a useful resources web page which lists churches and congregations that welcome gays, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered Christians. That page is located at: http://www.whosoever.org/resources.html
Among those churches, the Metropolitan Community Church deserves special mention. The MCC has 44,000 followers in 300 congregations in 16 countries. Its international website is at: http://www.ufmcc.com/
A state-by-state list of individual MCC churches is located at: http://www.ufmcc.com/dircongs.htm
I’m an atheist myself, so far be it from me to push religion on anyone. However, members of the GLBT community (and homophobes as well) should be aware that Christianity isn’t automatically and irretrievably hostile to homosexuality, and that there are a large number of faiths and congregations who will welcome them as they are and will not view homosexuality as sinful or something that needs to be changed.
The sin of the Sodomites was not taking care of their poor, etc. It had nothing to do with homosexuality.
“men shall not lie with other men”.
So if men tell the truth at all times, they can have sex with other men?
Oh, so you’re a man with extremely low self-esteem who doubts his own toughness and manhood and tries to “prove” it to others (but mostly to himself) by beating the crap out of those smaller and weaker than he, but who would scream like a nine-year-old girl if a bigger, badder, meaner guy threatens him.
Being proud of being a bully is like being proud of being a Nazi.
And you have a 9th-grader’s command of English besides.
And I’ll bet that you’re deeply, morbidly scared SHITLESS that YOU are gay and you’re desperately trying to prove to yourself that you can choose NOT to be gay. It terrifies you, doesn’t it, that you could be gay and there is not one single solitary thing you could do about it, that you would be gay till you’re dead?
Then, of course, there’s that irrational Bible-inspired fear that you’ll go to Hell for being gay. And that you can’t do anything about it.
I hope you have nightmares of being gang-raped by an entire football team with 12-inch dicks who then force you to suck off each and every one three times and swallow it all.
Of course, since you have managed to fuck a girl (or so you say…) it’s also possible you’re bi.
Here’s a terrible frightening thought for you: It’s possible that the most effeminate man who ever lived is twice the man you could ever be.
And the bigot shows his true colors - nice. Count the Gay Guy out of the rest of this one, except to say that Rook would do very well to go check out the “Ask the Gay Guy” threads for a little more enlightenment and education.
Polycarp, once again you prove yourself to be a paragon of civility, reason and intelligence. I bow to your superiority in such matters.
Esprix
OK, maybe one more post…
Rook, if you want a more balanced, enlightened view from a Christian minister, go read Walter Wink’s epochal “Homosexuality and the Bible”. In summary, he says that, yes, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin (although Sodom & Gemorrah wasn’t about homosexuality, but regardless, the Bible says so). The Bible also says no sex during menstration, stone adulterers, nudity is forbidden, polygamy is allowed, you must marry your dead husband’s brother, pre-marital sex is valid in some circumstances, males have property rights over women, you must marry within the twelve tribes of Isreal, celibacy is abnormal, a woman should have her hand cut off if she comes to the defense of her husband, slavery is never condemned, etc. He gives several examples and Biblical cites to support things that are quite explicit in the Bible, yet we no longer follow as law - and people still fixate on homosexuality. His question - why?
More to the point - why does it matter? Jesus calls us to love, not condemn. Love.
Read the article and think about that for a while.
Esprix
I’m just giving everyone here a maintenance warining.
Due to a wonky aspect of vB, threads get all weird when they reach 10 pages. For the sake of this thread’s integrity (ha!) I have to close it sometime around page 9. Try to get your last licks in (ha!).
If you feel must maintain the debate after the thread is closed start a new thread in GD. And try to behave yourselves there.
Where’s the fun in that?
Anyone else notice Rook hasn’t been here in two days? That isn’t like him.
Uh, yes it is. Rook said a while ago that he doesn’t have net access on the weekends.
I believe the following is the Bible verse you were attempting to quote, Rook:
No one is denying that that Bible verse exists. But closely following that prohibition is:
Yet every good farmer knows the value of crop rotation, doesn’t he? What of the comingled cloth? What’s your position on mixed textiles, Rook? Do you oppose them? Have you read through all of Leviticus? By your own admission, you’re fornicating with an unclean woman, so I can’t imagine what you hope to prove by bringing up these verses that you don’t follow yourself…
Consider this, since you seem so set on the Bible:
And the following, which I think Christian and atheist alike could do well to follow:
“Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” – Paul Simon
Sorry to interrupt but this topic needs to be shot in the head. Now.
As soon as we hit Page 9, the mods will most likely have to close it. (Some kind of screwiness that happens with the vbb code.)
Esprix
I don’t recall saying anything about gay people in that quote of mine. In fact I thought I was only talking to Punoqllads.
Matt
“what is your point? What do you want?”
My point is knowing how some homosexuals reply to these questions. I’ve never asked/wanted to ask someone gay these questions and felt this would be a good place to do it. No I’m a religious fanatic but everything I’ve heard about homosexuals in everyday conversation is always negative. It seemed to me that the evidence of why homosexuality is wrong was overwhelming and I wanted to hear the response to everything I’ve heard against homosexuality: (it’s against human biology, it’s immoral, it’s genetic, the bible is against homosexuality)
Jab 1
My hostile statement was originally in defense of Hannah who commented earlier and I felt was insulted with enough harshness to justify my reply.
I really don’t give a rats ass if you think I’d “cry like a nine year old girl.” What I do know is that Rook knows Rook better then any Jab 1 chump with a large vocabulary. Secondly, I don’t give 2.5 rats asses if you think I’m gay. You think I’m a Nazi? Fine. I’d be the first black Nazi in history.
DavisMcDavis
You’re absolutely right. I don’t follow the bible. What do I have to do with my questions? I’m asking about viewpoints from homosexuals.
Everyone:
Like I’ve been saying FROM THE BEGINNING. The arguments I’ve been using are not necessarily my own. I just want to know how you’d answer. Do you know that every heterosexual male I’ve met is terrified to get into a conversation like this with homosexuals. You think I’m a bigot? Man, if you think I’m a bigot I’d hate for you to hear what’s said about you behind your backs. In the office, walking down the street, in stores, at the movies, everywhere. It’s usually me that tell people who are disgusted by homosexuals, “Just leave em alone, you don’t have to be buddies with them but at least show a little respect.”
The same people who say, “I have no problem with gays,” are the same people who would disown their kids if they turned out to be one. I’m not the enemy people……just a spectator.
KellyM:
Wow, you remembered that I don’t have e-mail access on weekends : ) You want me don’t you?