Is there a way to take a picture and prove later it was taken on a specific day??

Factual Questions
1

Here’s the background. My father works for the INS, and we talked yesterday about a problem they’re encountering. A new law is probably going to be enacted that would allow certain benefits to immigrants assuming they’re already in the country by a specific date. He didn’t give details, but I would assume it’s an amnesty bill for illegals that are already here.

The process for them applying for the benefits (possibly a greencard or official status, but I can’t be sure) is a drawn-out affair, and they won’t turn the paperwork in for possibly a year. The one thing they HAVE to do, however, is prove they were in the country by the start date – the INS doesn’t want more illegals rushing into the country after the fact and attempting to take part is this amnesty.

Also, INS doesn’t want their offices flooded by people saying “I’m here!!” They’re trying to figure out a way for a photograph to be used as evidence that the person was in the country.

So … how to do it? My first thought was have them hold up a newspaper, but that can easily be kept for weeks or months for use. Automatic dates on cameras can be easily manipulated. Notary publics are completely unreliable (especially if they’re family) and the INS is loathe to ask for other, state organizations to bear the burden (so my thought of a picture in front of their local Post Office’s official date/clock is out).

Keep in mind, also, that most of these illegal immigrants do not have credit cards, have bank cards, pay rent, etc., so most of the paper-trail things I might do to show I’m in the country are not available.

Any thoughts on how an immigrant can have a picture of them taken so as to prove solidly that they were in fact in the country on the date in question? Many thanks in advance. I’ll try to check back fairly often to answer questions, provide feedback or shoot down other ideas that have been already suggested and discarded for various reasons.

2

saw this done in a surveilance video - they shot a pic of the newspaper vending machine with the newspaper’s dated edition visible.

For photograph, you’d take a pic of the person (they’d have to crouch) by the front of it so the paper’s headline and date could be visible, take the film in to get developed, saving the receipt, getting the store somehow to document that set of photos?

That way, at the very latest, it was taken the day of the receipt. and of course, if you used a one hour place, and went in the same day as the newspaper, it couldn’t be from BEFORE that date.

3

I think anything can be faked these days.

The best idea I can think of is to produce a photo, put a postage stamp and address on it and mail it to themself as if it were a postcard. The postmark would then be proof.

4

Obviously, a picture that was published would probably do the trick. (or video that was broadcast) However, I’m not sure that too many illegal aliens would have such things.

Other than that, I think it would take a picture that was at some recognizable event. (e.g. A picture of a guy a the Packers superbowl victory parade with Bret Favre in the background would probably do it.)

5

Huh. Off the top of my head, a few possibilities:

  • Some banks still have that time/temperature display outside of their building; do any of those show dates?

  • Continuing with the bank theme- most banks have a small sign out front before major holidays stating “this branch will be closed on December 25th” or such; taking a picture of said immigrant standing in an open (i.e., business hours with people in line) bank next to said sign could be seen as at least strong evidence that said picture was taken before that holiday.

  • Do any of the news shows still have a date stamp on them? That is, a little symbol in the corner of the screen showing the day? If not, take a picture of the immigrant standing next to the local station’s “five-day weather forecast”. Obviously, do this next to a TV that does not have a VCR hooked up to it. Or do this at Circuit City or a department store in front of a major bank of TVs.

Kind of farfetched, I must admit, but it’s hard to think of anything that would absolutely prove that you were there at a specific point in time. But not as farfetched as photographing the immigrant with absolutely everyone you meet, then scanning the obituaries the next day.

6

Thanks for the replies so far. I’ll address them in order.

Wring, that’s definitely an idea and one I’ll propose as a possibility, but I see a couple ways around it. First, I can save today’s newspaper, and then put a quarter in a machine next month and slide it into the front. As for the photo lab, as long as I get a set of photos developed today, then I’ll have the receipt – I can take photos of me, have the guy sign something saying “the person in the photo was in my store today” and then simply put the later photos in the folder with the receipt.

Lance, I think the problem with that is that there would be no “standard” event for the immigrants to get to. While someone could pose in front of an inauguration parade in DC, for instance, if the deadline is Feb. 1, what might people in, say, Grand Rapids MI do? I think it has to be a standardized rule so the INS can’t be sued if they have to turn down an application. (“EVERYONE knows that Jan. 28th is the Sudanese feast of Hrabunom! See the roast duck? That’s what they always eat for Hrabunom! Honest!!”)

Perderabo, that’s actually a slight edit of a suggestion I had. I thought of putting it in an envelope and having that postmarked, but was told that envelopes could easily be steamed open and the picture inside changed. But treating the photo itself as a postmark just might work! I would imagine they’d have to be advised to go to the post office themselves and ask for a handstamp, to be sure it’s legible. The only other concern would be someone who’s creative enough to mail them a blank piece of photo paper and then develop a picture on that, but those’ll be few and far between … or someone who gets ahold of an counterfeit postmarker and that’s even more farfetched.

John, your first suggestion is actually a possibility, but a light one. The INS thinks banks wouldn’t be too happy to have a number of illegal immigrants congregating on their property taking pictures. You’d also have to answer to people who say their town doesn’t have such a bank, as well as people with bad reflexes who took a picture and realized later that it has the temp, rather than the just-disappeared date. Same with the sign, as well as the possibility they can print their own sign, stick it on the door, take a pic and then jet. As for your TV idea, I had that thought as well, but there’d be no way of telling if it was attached to a VCR or not … hidden wires going off-camera, for example. As for your bank-of-TVs idea, same thing as the bank – the INS can’t ask stores to let loads of immigrants in just to take pictures.

Sick as it is, I actually like the idea of taking lots of pictures and then scanning the obits! lol. It reminds me of a standup comic I saw who said his favorite pasttime was to read the obits and then cross their names out of the phone book, “because I won’t be calling THEM anymore!”

BTW, sorry if I’m sounding picky or anal here, but when the stakes are this high, trust me that people WILL think of any and all ways to get around the law in order to stay in the US.

7

Given access to a scanner and decent photo retouching software it’s possible produce a fake photo that is indestinguishable from a real one. Of course an immigrant who doesn’t have a credit card, a bank card, or pay rent is unlikely to have the access to the tools necessary for such a deception.

I’d recommend using the photograph only as proof-of-location and use some other technique as proof-of-time. For example, have someone take the immigrant’s picture in front of a public landmark that is clearly in the United States – the local courthouse, for example. Then have him mail the photo to himself by certified mail. He retains the original receipt and the matching sealed envelope.

The only drawback to this scheme is that in order to vertify the document you have to open the envelope, which destroys its value as a future means of identification. Probably you’d want to have them do two or three copies.

8

A picture taken in front of a soon to be demolished building might work. Or on the vacant lot of a soon to be constructed building.

9

Wait a moment, I just checked some pics I took recently (ok, so it was the 27th of May of this year) and because I got it processed by Kodak Pictures [sup]tm[/sup], it contained a ‘proof sheet’ that was dated and had miniature pics of the whole roll. Coupled with the newspaper thing would that work???

10

Hokienautic, what do you mean by:
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Notary publics are not, “completely unreliable” as far as the law is concerned. Maybe you don’t like them… but it seems to me that INS would have to accept their sig and stamp.

This is exactly the kind of thing NP’s are for. They sign to witness things that can not otherwise be proven authentic.

Get a Notary. Case closed.

11

If the INS is not willing to consider notaries public then I think they are going to be making things WAY too hard on themselves. I say use the notaries public and have a policy of criminally pursuing fraud if found.

Otherwise, just about anything can be faked and will be too complex to use as a requirement. But try this:

Have the immigrant take a picture of himself, the day’s newspaper, and his best friend. Then have the immigrant murder his best friend.

The newspaper will prove that the picture was not taken BEFORE the date, the fact that the best friend was still alive will prove that the picture was not taken AFTER the date.

12

Actually, I believe the problem is bigger than you realize. That is, I assume the law will give amnesty to all aliens who have been here prior to a specific date IN THE PAST (i.e. all those here before 1/1/95) in which case, you may have photos presented, but you can almost bet these people did not have the psychic foresight to say “Gee, I better take a picture of myself in front of this dated sign in case I’m offered amnesty five years from now and need to prove I was here at that time”.

I honestly can’t think of a good way to do it independent of some people from the alien’s past being able to provide the needed paperwork to document they were working at that time (which, of course, is self-incriminating for that employer who presumably knowingly hired an alien)

Also, I did briefly work in a post office for a few summers during college for extra money, and let me be the first to tell you that post-marked and/or cancelled mail can absolutely be faked. In fact, we had guys all the time who worked there, illegally setting back the date on bills they mailed in late to “prove” they had mailed them on time, and it wasn’t their fault the ‘damned post office’ was so slow in delivering the mail. I assure you if a market developed for fake postmarks, you can bet the guys I worked with would be cranking through as many applications/ pictures as they could

13

Get yourself a Fair Witness :slight_smile:

14

To answer the notary public question, it’s my understanding that it’s quite easy to become a Notary Public and as such would be much more open to fraud, ESPECIALLY in areas that are already high-fraud, such as illegal/legal immigration. I mean, my brother – who can’t keep a job six months – became a notary public rather easily.

Yarster, this law actually will not be an “in the past” deadline, but if I understood correctly, will be a date in the very near future.

Wring, that’s a very good point … if this is in fact done as standard, then it’s a good possibility. Of course, it’s always open to fraud as well – slipping the photo processor a $20 to backdate the machine for instance.

I’m beginning to think any possible solution will have SOME method of fraud that can get around it. The question then becomes what’s the least likely to happen? I think the picture-postcard is the best one I’ve seen so far, followed closely by wring’s suggestion.

15

Some labs, like Kodak, put the development date on the negatives. Some mask it into the film, some punch it into the trailer with holes.

Polaroid film has serial numbers that could be dated for manufacturing date, but mainly to disprove a photo is old.

The way hostage takers do it is to have a newspaper headline in the shot, but again to show it was a new photo.

Certain polaroid films are no longer being produced.

The Kodak “polaroid” film was stopped after they lost a patent suit with Land Co.

16

Hokie, this is not the first time INS has had this type of program. What type of proof have they required in the past? I work for another federal agency, and it would amaze me if they did not have policy statements up the yingyang on this. My assumption is, they allow a pretty damn broad net, and have a pretty low requirement for standard of proof. And most immigrants are not unaware of how the system works. When the date gets set, they will know about it, and will do what is required. Those who don’t, too bad.

And yeah, there are dishonest NPs. Heck, Mrs D learned that she was an NP - her scumball dad had gotten one in her name so he could notarize his own stuff. What a sweetheart. But as was said above, accept the best evidence reasonably expected, and clamp down on fraud.

I assume they’l accept all kinds of evidence. Anything addressed to them with a date, affidavits, etc.

17

"Also, INS doesn’t want their offices flooded by people saying “I’m here!!” "

Seems to me like you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Clearly, there is no normal sort of evidence that can’t be faked by anyone determined enough.

You don’t trust the post office. You don’t trust the photography store.

So you can’t go by what is absolute proof, you have to go by what seems like a reasonable standard, logically and legally.

But you don’t trust outside legal authority, namely notary publics.

So I guess the only people INS trusts is itself, so you have to require them to come down to the office and be approved by the INS directly. This seems like the logical thing to do anyhow.

My $.02

18

Have the immigrant commit a crime. When they’re arrested and tried, the date of the arraignment/trial will appear on their record. Or not.

Sorry, I don’t have a serious suggestion. I think the stuff about getting the photo developer to timestamp the photos or using a Notary Public would be your best bet.

19

Too expensive; tanstaafl.
:wink:

20

I can only think of two suggestions but neither of them has anything to do with a photograph, so I don’t know how much help they’ll be.

  1. Have them come down to the INS office in person before the date and have them fill out some sort of paperwork.

  2. Have them open a bank account. A passbook or statement savings account can be opened with just a few dollars and the bank stamps the date right in the passbook or prints it on the statement. No way is the bank going to fudge a deposit or withdrawal date.

  3. Hi, Opal.

I’ll keep thinking about it. But, if you’re really set on a photo, I don’t think there is any way that is counterfit proof.