Do you really think I automatically jump on race as an explanation all the time? And where in any of my posts have I said anything about being inhibited? In fact, I clearly remember saying that I initiate conversations when I find that no one is approaching me. Scroll above if you don’t believe me.
I asked you a question but maybe you missed it during your wild attempt to paint me as crazy. Do you believe that there are people–maybe a lot, maybe not–who simply do not like others because of their race? If your answer to this question is anywhere close to the affirmative, then why are you acting as if simply being aware of this reality during interactions with people is irrational or over-the-top? Can you answer me that? And as long as you’re doing that, could you answer me this: Do you think white people who live or work in predominately non-white environments would be irrational if they occassionally wondered about how important their race plays in interactions?
I don’t expect you to really answer my questions, but I’ll cross my fingers anyway.
I think that if the way you reacted to my post is any indication then most of what you perceive as a race issue is truly in your head.
I’m sure there are people who react to people because of their race. Just as their are ones who react to people who are tall or short or beautiful or ugly or fat or skinny or male or female, etc. You deal with the cards dealt you. Don’t blame me because you weren’t born a certain way because I don’t care, nor would I discriminate against you, or for you, because of the way you look. Can you do the job I’m hiring you for? Do I have to babysit you? Those are the things I want to know. I can’t answer for everyone, but if you go into any situation looking for the bad, you’re likely to find what your looking for even if it isn’t there.
I don’t know why I’m torturing myself by continuing this conversation with you. Maybe I’m a masochist.
First off, just because you’re a Nobel and Upstanding Guy Who Would Never Discriminate Based on Race does not mean that racial discrimination does not happen. Yet again we have a white person personalizing an issue that should not be personalized. No one in this thread accused Uzi of being a racist. So simmer down now.
Secondly, my question wasn’t “Are there people who react to people because of their race?” My question was, “Are there people who do not like others because of their race?” You may not think this is an important distinction, but it is. “Not liking” can cause everything from being snubbed at a conference to not getting a job or a home. If I’m at a conference and I want to get some important information from one of the panelists, it is not irrational for me to think, before I speak, “I hope this interaction will be pleasant and not one of those weird ones where I have to wonder what just happened.” White people have the very same thoughts! It’s just that the possible causes of “what just happened” rarely include race for them, because usually the person they want to talk to is white as well.
I don’t understand why anyone would react so hostilly to such a non-controversial point.
But go ahead and twist my words so that I can look like the crazy militant black chick. I enjoy the costume that comes along with that role.
FWIW, as a white teacher, it’s a pretty big deal to me. I know–and I know because the kids tell me–that some of the black kids in my class get an earful at home about whitey, about how racist white people are. I’ve had a black kid tell me a joke where the punchline was that the black guy killed the white guy just because he was white. I’ve had multiple black kids tell me or other teachers, “I don’t like white people,” or, “My mama doesn’t like white people.” When I was pairing up my kids with some kids in another class, I had one black girl loudly proclaim, “My partner better be black.” Many experiences along these lines.
I have never, not once, had a similar experience in which a white kid talks about how their mama doesn’t like black people, or demand a white partner, or the like.
The simple conclusion is not the correct conclusion. We’re not talking about a one-way racism street here. I’ve had white parents use code words to talk with me about the non-white students in the class. I’ve had to deal with white kids who refuse to play with black kids. I’ve had white kids who will make up stories about black kids–and only about black kids–to get them in trouble.
And I’ve been straight-up accused of racism by a black student, based on the fact that black students were getting in more trouble than white students. I had him take note of the behaviors, not simply the consequences, to see that I was treating people fairly–but even then I am constantly watching what I’m doing.
This exemplifies a problem I have with this list. It starts with an agenda and looks to justify it, and I think it oversimplifies the issues surrounding race in the US. Yeah, there’s a lot of obliviousness among a lot of white people. But it’s not so, pardon the expression, black and white as the list makes it appear.
I don’t think that’s a good comparison. There was a widely shown video of Reverend Wright yelling, “God damn America”. Claiming that someone who had called for God to damn America hates America doesn’t require factoring in race.
As I said, people are not ‘liked’ for many reasons. Some things people can change, assuming they would want to, to satisfy some nob who cares about such things.
And little did I know that when I thought I was asked a stupid question, it was because a person of a different colored skin had asked it rather than it just being stupid. Or, a question from someone else had more value or merit for similar reasons. If your predisposition is to assume that the reason someone reacts to you is because of your skin color, maybe you don’t look at what may be the actual reason they are acting in that manner. Do you understand what I’m saying? By assuming that a reaction of a person is based upon racism it removes the responsibility from yourself and lays it upon them. Rather than finding out that the real reason people react negatively to you (not you personally) is your raging bad breath, or something equally mundane and possibly correctable.
Controlling for class? Pretty much all of them. What do you call an African-American millionaire who has a Harvard Ph.D. in astrophysics and teaches the subject at MIT? (You all know the answer, don’t bother posting it.)
But, doesn’t this actually show that being white in US has nothing to do with skin color? That being white in US means ‘white’ - a term that requires a definition beyond skin color. This US ‘white’ is certainly different than European ‘white’ and even in Europe there are degrees of ‘whiteness’ depending on the country.
I know US has its history of racial issues but myself being an immigrant from Eastern Europe I cannot help but think that there’s too much focus on just a skin color. Belonging and acceptance are much more complicated than that and simply saying it’s all because of skin color is at the very least, unhelpful. Process of discovery has to account for multiple variables.
For me, it has to do with factors such as upbringing, education, system of values, cultural and historical context. Therefore, to belong and to be accepted is all about a degree of identification per each factor way beyond mere skin color. If an individual wants to belong and be accepted skin color should not/does not matter.
If you read all of my posts in this thread, you’ll see that I used many qualifiers. Words like “usually”, “most”, and “rarely.” You’re a smart guy and you’ve been on the board just as long, if not longer, than I have. So you should be at least somewhat familiar with who I am. Do you really think I was saying that all white people enjoy the luxury of not thinking having to think about race? Because just in case it wasn’t clear, I wasn’t. And I’m not sure I actually like that “white privilege” list. It, as you say, oversimplifies things.
Your post is actually interesting to me because it makes my point rather than nullifies it. I was raised by socially progressive parents (father isn’t as much as my mother, but that’s not really important). I was bussed to schools so I could be educated along with white, upper-middle class kids. Most of my teachers were white. Some of them, as kids would say, were straight-up “old school.” Knowing this and knowing the way the world works, my mother raised me to be “racially conscious.” She never advocated the type of discrimination that some of your students have been taught (which is just straight-up awful), but she did teach me to never forget that I was a black kid in a predominately white world, living in a place (Atlanta) where “old school” means “get in your place, nigger.” So I was taught that the teacher who seems to hate me (we all have one of those in our past) may hate me for lots of reasons, including race. So if I notice a pattern of racial favortism, then I shouldn’t be shocked. Not outraged. Not beligerent. But just aware. The same with white kids. Some of them may hate me for personal reasons, while others could hate me because they’ve been taught racial hatred. Regardless, do not let them steal your sunshine. But if the “n” word slips out of their mouth one day, do not be shocked. They just showed how they were raised, and you need to stay away from them.
I don’t agree with my mother’s racial politics all the time, and there were some times when she went overboard. But if I were to have kids, I think it would be irresponsible for me not to share the history of our country’s dealings with race and also let them know that the struggle is not over. That some people still harbor stupid, potentially dangerous beliefs…and that these people will not always announce themselves with a white sheet and bullhorn. I would teach them to trust people and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but to also trust their instincts when their gut tells them someone just ain’t right. In other words, don’t be all “we are the world, we are the children”. One day we’ll get to that point, but right now we aren’t there yet.
Now admittedly, I don’t know how it is to be white. I wasn’t raised by white parents, so I don’t know what they generally talk about when it comes to race. But am I safe in assuming that such conversations are not common in white households? If I’m right, then that exemplifies the theme of this thread. For white people, race is invisible until it’s not (like when one becomes a teacher at a predominately black school). For black people, race becomes an issue pretty much from day 1. One day it probably won’t be this way, but it makes perfect sense why people from my generation (Gen X) and older were raised like this. It was a matter of survival for our parents and grandparents to know the “rules”. So of course they’re going to teach us those rules, and the concomitant mistrust and anxiety, to their off-spring.
Racism is a two-way street, but the ramifications of racism in this country are not. If you get tired of the racial crap at your school, you can make tracks to a predominately white school and go back to living in a world where race doesn’t matter, doesn’t exist. There are still many places in this country that are like this. However, if some racial crap pops up at my workplace, I can work somewhere else but chances are the demographics are going to be the exact same. I’d be better off doing as Uzi suggests and deal with the hand that’s been dealt me, rather than seeking a place where I don’t have to deal with racial crap. Such a place probably exists, but do I really feel like trying to find it? In this economy?
You still aren’t getting it. Perhaps I’m dealing with someone with reading comprehension problems rather than someone who just chooses not to read what I’m writing. Regardless, I’m starting to feel like I’m banging my head against the wall. So I’m giving up on you, dude.
No, I don’t get it. So, you’re racially ‘aware’. What does it get you by being so? How does it actually help you?
We can talk about ‘white privilege’. Can we talk about ‘white male privilege’? How about ‘white tall male privilege’? Or how about ‘black privilege for those who are good at networking and excellent public speakers’? Which would be my boss. He is an excellent speaker who manages to speak a lot without actually saying much. People love to listen to him. I’m twice as technically competent as he is and can visualize and accomplish things he hasn’t even imagined yet, but have no where near the ability to communicate with others. I’m quite sure he has had people look down upon him because he is black. Yet, he is still my boss.
So, the question is, could be have been higher up the corporate food chain by now if he was white? Who knows. All I know is that he is higher up than I am and the other employees who work for him.
No, it shows that white skin is a necessary-but-insufficient condition. (It is an entirely sufficient condition now, but we took a long time getting even to that point.)
After reading rachelellogram’s list, I think that if white privilege exists, it exists mostly as ‘whites don’t divide the world into races then spend large amounts of effort looking for anything that makes us different’.
If someone is going to go around looking for reasons to be pissed of and made to feel they’re different, they’ll find reasons. This is true if it’s a white girl who is worried about her looks, anyone who is concerned about their intelligence, a homosexual defensive about their sexuality, or a minority who makes a list of white privilege. I’m sorry, but I seriously do not understand the mentality of ‘view EVERYTHING through the prism of race’. Or, perhaps more accurately, I don’t understand why anyone else should care about this sort of hairtrigger hyperactive view of race.
That being said, if white privilege exists probably depends a lot on what area of the country we’re talking about. In the backwaters or Alabama, yeah, I’m sure there is a shitload of benefits to being white. In middle of NYC, class and behavior probably are far more of a factor than race. In middle of Compton, I imagine a black person would actually be treated better than any other race. Things vary far too much from one place to another to answer the question on a national scale.
[quote=“rachelellogram, post:4, topic:565759”]
[li]I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the food I grew up with, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can deal with my hair.[/li][/quote]
Ok, this one I have to respond to. With how popular rap is, you actually believe minorities aren’t represented in the music industry? Michael Jackson is a pop culture deity right along with Elvis and the Beatles, but you can’t find a minority artists in the music shop? What the hell type of shitass music shop are you going to?
Plus I really have to wonder, if grocery stores don’t care food that you were raised on, where did your parents get the food they raised you up on at? Did there used to be shipments of authentic cuisine shipped across the oceans that have suddenly stopped?
Our culture, our country, is dealing with the swinging pendulum of race relations about as I would expect… things once were that the default state was (as we would call it today), racism. Blacks were inferior, period. It was an accepted truth, written in stone, and even abolitionists and those who fought against slavery would make that statement. White Americans (a vast, overwhelming majority of them) were racist.
Things change. Time marches forward.
Now, I feel, that we are coming close to a state where the majority of white Americans are NOT racist. However, due to that pendulum swing, there is a percentage (hopefully not a majority, but it would be interesting to see some research done) of black Americans who could be classified as racist (though it is usually no put in that way). A belief held, certain and absolute, that they are being oppressed, that almost all negative things that happen to them are due to the fact that they are black, that any white person is immediately to be thought of as a racist who will hurt them if they can. A mindset that perpetuates the “us vs them” mentality.
A mindset that is by and large racism (ie: the creation of expectations, usually negative, based on perceived race).
Eventually things will swing again, and as time goes on, as the march progresses, we will eventually come to a nice stable middle… where people, ALL PEOPLE, are judged not by the color of their skin, but by their actions. Where there are a small minority of both black and white that are racist, but they are looked upon with derision by the common majority of people. Where a black man is not stopped in his car just for being black, and a white kid is not accosted on the street for being white.
But it’s gonna take work (in progress), and it’s gonna take time. It cannot happen like the flip of a switch.
Would you consider it fair to say that today there are not ‘rules’ as there used to be as recently as three or four decades ago? Not to say there isn’t racism around, but I mean that you aren’t in danger if you don’t know stuff like go to the back of the bus, always use sir and ma’am to whites, never ever be alone with a white woman, don’t be around when white guys get drunk, and similar crap that used to pretty vital to know for a black who didn’t want lynched.
If you would agree there are no longer rules that blacks, and only blacks, must follow then I have to wonder if your parents unintentionally taught you outdated skills. If you were to have kids you say you would pass on this learning, and I have to wonder why? Teach them that racism exists, certainly, but why teach them to “never forget that I was a black kid in a predominately white world”? Now that society, in general, has embraced equality that black children no longer need that worldview. Perhaps you are like the blacksmiths son who was raised in the family business just as the industrial revolution made it obsolete.
If you disagree, I’d like to know what the rules today are. I don’t mean examples of when you felt out of place or examples of racism, which I’m sure still exists. I mean what rule that you as a black man must follow to survive that I as a white man don’t?
"we’ve got racism fairly well licked in this country"
Unfortunately, this is far from the truth. I was raised “white” and given all the appropriate “class” benefits. When I found out I was Mohawk(Native American), I moved to my familial tribe to get to know them more. I got a job at the mall and was shocked at the prejudice. I’d never experienced it before and was appalled. Racism is definitely not “licked” in any way.
"The real benefit (or “privilege”) conferred by being a white American, though, is that it makes it far likelier that one will have been born into the middle class…"
There are middle class racists too…chances are you got so used to it you don’t even know you’re doing it–like I DID. I never realized how racist white America is, until I was no longer white. One response from apathetic racism…“but I’m not racist, I have ‘friends’ that are black.” I’ve been yelled at by “white” people for not including the fact a person was “black” in my description of them. Why would I need to? If I tell you the person is in a highlighter pink shirt, THAT is what you should be looking for. Not the color of their skin.
“It’s class that confers real privilege, or the lack of it - not race. A middle-class white or black or Asian or (American) Indian family is going to give its kids a whole lot of advantages.”
If there’s prejudice, it won’t matter what you want to give your kid, you’ll hit road block after road block…money/class do not buy happiness…or an un-racist society. If anything, the wealthier the class the MORE racist they tend to be–unfortunately, unless your in Hollywood Remember…I’m speaking after standing on both sides of the fence…thinking I’m white, knowing now that I am not, and understanding the ramifications of that fact…
"So, I’m a huge fan of need-based financial aid programs for education. And I’m decidedly lukewarm on affirmative action"
…affirmative action is a “need-based” program…people NEED to stop thinking racism doesn’t exist and get these kids into college!
Keeping in mind that the plural of anecdote is not data, I’ve noticed a distinctly more positive response when I’m with my (white) wife than when I’m alone. Granted, there are other potential factors here- my wife is attractive, for example - but it’s a phenomenon I noticed to varying degrees when I’m with other white people too.
Taking the 20th (and preceding) centuries into account, I would have to disagree with you on this point. Race (racial divisions and claims of racial superiority) is an unavoidable and dominant force in modern western political history. It was the key justification for… pretty much every rotten thing done in the world: slavery, genocide, colonialism. A lot of independence/civil/world wars were fought either enforcing it or fighting it.
If Blacks are obsessed by race, it might be because Whites are also obsessed by it too; some -like the above examples- take it past the point extremism.
Remember…I’m speaking after standing on both sides of the fence…thinking I’m white, knowing now that I am not, and understanding the ramifications of that fact…