Were you a racist when you were ‘white’ (I’m not sure how you changed your skin color).
Some of the alleged advantages of the list posted earlier don’t strike me so much a function of white privilege as much as majority culture privilege. For instance, the first one - I am reasonably sure there are any number of Africans who function perfectly well in their own culture without speaking a word of English.
And this one -
might be true, but it is not a function of racism, at least not present-day racism. For better or worse, the history of the US is primarily a history of what white, mostly Christian, males did and said. Certainly a lot of that is because blacks were enslaved or otherwise kept down for a good part of our history, and that is a terrible thing. Maybe they should have been allowed to play a greater role, but the point is, they weren’t. So, if you want to talk about what actually happened, then pretty much you are going to be confined to talking about the actions of white males. And it seems more than a little patronizing to see the lengths to which we sometimes stretch to try to find something to ascribe to blacks or other minorities to pretend that they played just a significant a role as Thomas Jefferson or FDR.
Regards,
Shodan
No, I don’t. Please elaborate.
I think the real difficulty in evaluating even the existence of “white privilege” as some sort of racist construct is very much muddied by the interplay between 3 things in the US:
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Socio-economic background, as mentioned by other posters.
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Membership in the majority ethnic group
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Actual overt racism
Of those 3, I think the first two play the largest role in the US. There are advantages conferred along with rising socio-economic status. There are also roles conferred by being a member of the majority ethnic group in a country. It just happens that in the US, both of those sets of advantages overlap a great deal and break down along racial lines.
Overt racism isn’t probably a real issue- I’d bet that a lot of what people think of as overtly racist is probably more classist than anything else, but with the extreme overlap of class and race, it’s easy to mistake the two.
I’d personally like to see studies that determine if there are the same kind of privileges within mostly black areas, i.e. are middle/upper class blacks given more privileges than lower class blacks and all white people, or does it break down by socio-economic background?
I’d also like to see if there’s any hindrance associated with stereotypically black names vs. stereotypically white trash names. I suspect there’s not, but I’m no sociologist either.
Unknowingly, yes. People ‘tried’ to not be prejudiced, but comments always came out, certain races were casually disrespected, and people always laughed. How can you know something is wrong if everyone is doing it? You never see how much it hurts because there are no other races around. I was always told I was Greek. Acceptable, as there was the Greek Tycoon…and Jackie Onassis!
Morals are different from one end of the country to another. I happened to be raised in an upper-middle class anglo saxon white community where everyone wore there attitudes and their alligators on their sleeves at the yacht club.:rolleyes:…sorry, not everyone. Many though.
It’s a “joke” that IIRC Malcolm X told. The punch line is “nigger”.
Aren’t you glad you asked?
Regards,
Shodan
There are still rules. Just unspoken and less “life and death.” But there are rules if you are black and want to make life as easy as possible.
For instance, I was watching CNN a few weeks back, and the guy was interviewing the union boss of Brooklyn cab drivers, who was advocating racial profiling. Essentially he was telling black and Hispanic people that if they wanted a ride in a taxi, they needed to dress a certain way. No hoodies (even if it’s cold), face uncovered (no scarfs…even if it’s cold), and nothing else that would signify “hood” or “thug”. Sounds reasonable, right? Except…why not have that be a “rule” for everyone? Sure, crime is being disproportionately committed by blacks and Hispanics (though I’m sure it’s skews much more towards young males than to ALL blacks and Hispanics, but whatever). But can a cab driver really differentiate a covered-up white guy from an uncovered light-skinned Hispanic or black guy? It just seemed like he was going out of his way to be polemic.
So that’s one rule.
Upon entering college, I attended an orientation program for minority students (the school wanted to improve matriculation rates of their minority population, and this was one of their strategies.) Among other things, we were taught to arrive on time, sit in the front of the class, ask questions, ask intelligent questions, make sure the professor knows our name, and most importantly, WORK TWICE AS HARD AS EVERYONE ELSE, BECAUSE IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT YOU ARE UNEDUCATED AND STUPID AND DO NOT BELONG AT THIS ELITE INSTITUTION. OH YEAH, AND YOU’LL MAKE ALL THE OTHER BLACK PEOPLE LOOK BAD If YOU DON’T.
One night they “treated” us to a movie. We had to watch “Boys in the Hood” and then talk about the “bad decisions” that were made by the characters. Note: none of us were thugs. Most of us were all wannabe engineers and scientists, from pretty stable, middle-class households. Why were they treating us like we were going to shoot up the place as soon as school started? I know it sounds like I’m making this all up, but it’s all true. And it still troubles me today.
I know they had general orientation for all the students, but I have a sinking feeling no one told those kids that there was no chance in hell they were going to get a job if they didn’t make more than a 3.5 or better GPA. That was the kind of high-pressure crap the black kids were told, just to motivate us to work harder than everyone else.
So no, I didn’t get any life and death lessons. It was more like, “If you want these people to respect you, you have to be better than them. They won’t admire you, but they’ll at least see you as being on their level.”
Is it true? In my experience, yes, it is. I know this thread is full of posters denying the role racism still plays in this country. I know everyone’s ready to stop singing “We shall overcome”. But my life, as short and as long as it has been, has revealed a number of instances revealing that for a black person to get recognition for anything cognitive, they can’t be average. If you’re an average black kid, don’t expect teachers to give you that extra boost you need to get you to above-average. No, expect them to put you in a remedial classroom. Your mediocrity will not be attributed to laziness caused by a bored brilliant mind, as so many of my mischevious white classmates were identified. No, you will be said to be “slow”, “learning-disabled”, or both lazy and dumb. Something like this happened to me, and I’ve heard first-hand accounts from others that it happened to.
Another rule: Even when you show yourself to be worthy, some people, even people you consider well-intentioned, will still think you are not good enough. Do not listen to them.
Example 1:
I was an above-average high school student. I had earned a National Achievement scholarship and had won numerous awards and accolades under my belt throughout high school. Top ten percent, AP classes, city recognition, everything. And yet when my white classmates found out that I had gotten accepted to my alma mater, they didn’t congratulate me. They called me out as a beneficiary of AA, even though my grades were far superior to theirs, nor was I a damn alcoholic or a weed-freak like they were.
Example 2:I had a professor in college who wanted me to work in his lab for graduate school. Cool! When I showed him my off-the-chain GRE score, he asked me–in all sincerity–if it’s possible a mistake had been made. Not so cool, man. I declined his offer to be one of his graduate “slaves” and made a success of myself somewhere else.
So you’re right. I don’t have to worry so much about lynching and open-air humiliation. But if you think black people can afford to be blasse about race and the racial prejudices people hold, you’re sadly mistaken.
Nope. The only thing my mother taught me that I wouldn’t pass on to my kids is blanket mistrust of white people. But everything else she taught me about racial prejudice is spot-on. When she was growing up, it would have been fine for a grown adult to call her “nigger” to her face and demand that she get to the back of the bus. Given that reality, are you telling me that it would have been fine for her to ignore the past and the undeniable reality that those same people who did that kind of shit are still living and breathing as sure as we are now? It would have been irresponsible for her to hold back that information, IMHO. Simply telling me that it happened let me know that it could happen again.
You assume things that aren’t in evidence. Where is the evidence that black children are embraced with equality? When was the last time you saw a nationwide amber alert for a missing black child? When was the last time you saw a Nancy Grace show about a missing black teenager? If white kids were shooting themselves at the rate the black teenagers were, you’d have 24/7 coverage of it on CNN. Instead, we get treated to that kind of coverage when a Columbine happens…where we get hours of pundits talking about “What went wrong with this picture perfect kid?”
I would raise my hypothetical children to know their history and recognize that prejudice and racism are not things of the past. Yes, things have gotten better, a whole lot. But that doesn’t mean you will not end up in situations where race WILL be a factor. It doesn’t have to be mentioned; sometimes you just know. And if you know it, you must speak on it. For instance, when I was put in remedial classes in middle school, I reluctantly told my mother (because I was ashamed). Through her prompt action in rectifying the situation, and explaining to me how academic tracking can thoroughly mess students up, I learned that it doesn’t matter how cute and smart you think you are–sometimes your address and race matter more. So if my little girl comes to me just as I did to my mother and sadly asks why she’s in slow classes when she earned stellar grades the previous year, I will fix the situation promptly and then explain to her that if something like that were to EVER happen again, she needs to tell me immediately and not be all “okey doke” about it. Because she could be witnessing an innocent mistake, but more likely history is being played out again. And that school needs to be put in check.
I’m a woman, not a man. And I hope I already answered your question. I’m not holding my breath that my post will get any respect, however. Whenever a black person on this board deigns to talk about their experience as a black person, they get treated as if they’re a liar, an exaggerator, or a paranoid wackjob. I’m not any of those things, but I anticipate someone implying that I am.
That’s another rule I’ve learned. Lots of white people do not want to hear about other people’s experiences with race unless it’s “happy happy joy joy” or it’s about how racist black people are. Just see how many people in this thread are already saying racism is no big deal. How many of these people would even know? I’m black and I don’t even know.
But I have read that black and white names are treated differentially, as someone had asked about earlier:
and just for extra reading:
Alternate punchline:
“You call him ‘doctor,’ you fucking racist.”
I’m still not getting it. You provided examples to show racism does exist. You provided examples of the unintended consequences of AA. You provide examples of how blacks must excel just to be treated equally. All of which I’m sure is true. However, I still don’t know any rule you must follow that I don’t have to. You obviously have obstacles you have to overcome that others do not, but so do blind people, poor people, those with low IQs, women, etc. I didn’t see any example of something society allows me to do that you aren’t allowed because of your race.
The real thing I am wondering about though is what is the point of passing on “never forget that I was a black kid in a predominately white world”? Teaching your children to know there is racism in the world is obviously needed because there is. Teaching your children to stand up against racism is noble because they’re going to have to do that during their life. But teaching them to never forget they’re different from everyone else around them seems extreme to me. It fosters a sense of isolationism, instills a feeling of inadequacy, and prompts a person to blame everything bad that happens to them on racism. None of which seems to me to be something to burden your future children with. It’s the difference between ‘Son, there are bullies in the world, and here’s how to deal with them…’ and ‘Son, there are bullies in the world, so always keep yourself apart from everyone else…’
The thing is, I don’t believe it is true that blacks are so different anymore. Your mother had to always remember that she was separate from the white society around her, there would be grave consequences for her if she did not. But things have changed. If you and I met on the street, we could go get a drink without it being a scandal. We could be friends with no one finding it strange. We could date with little racial issues. Or you could openly despise me and call me an arrogant asshole without others thinking you were being ‘uppity nigger’ or whatever phrase they used to use. You can interact with me in every way white people interact with me and almost no one would think it was wrong. I firmly believe that, in general, if a black person feels different and separate from a ‘white world’ it is no longer because society forced them into that. I’m not saying racism doesn’t still exist, but society no longer thinks you and I are separate or that you must act subservient to me just because I’m white.
Basically what I’m saying is that I understand where this comes from. I don’t fault your mother, given her life experiences what she taught you makes perfect sense. However, why continue that and teach your children that they are different? Separate but equal failed in the 50’s, and it’s failing now. So isn’t it time for blacks as well as whites to quit passing on that blacks they are different and separate?
By the way, sorry about the gender mistake. Also, I used you and I here as an example, obviously I’m talking about broader themes rather than you and me specifically.
I’m not white myself; or black, for that matter. As a member of another unspecified racial minority group I can testify for sure that white privilege does in fact exist. A LOT of people in my ethnic group use their real (read: ethnic) names, why not? As soon as an interviewer sees their face it’s kind of obvious.
This is why I strongly suggest seeking success by working with your own.
Bear with me here. Whites work primarily with other whites in the U.S… Look at who is at the top of the financial food chain in the U.S. But people in my ethnic group (as well as others) also work primarily with each other. Asians, Muslims, Hispanics (especially 1st/2nd gen immigrants), etc., all prosper best when they work with their own kind.
Blacks need to try sticking together and supporting each other more often. All the other racial groups do. The Black Panthers had it right - sadly, the Government defamed the hell out of them and made them to be terrorists when they really weren’t. Speaking of white privilege, how many militia groups have been the victim of COINTELPRO tactics after they shot abortion doctors and blew up the Oklahoma building? The FBI never systematically wiped them out; the FBI, instead, went after specific targets, the actual criminals. The Black Panthers, on the other hand, were hunted down whether they committed any crimes or not.
Still, I feel blacks must preservere and continue to work together. Don’t rely on the white man (or anyone else) to clean your dirty laundry. My ethnic group didn’t rely on that when they had issues in one particular city - they took care of the miscreants in their ranks and turned the neighborhoods into prosperous areas even as the rest of the city was descending into abject poverty.
You didn’t see it? She showed you that you can’t have a black sounding name and hope to get a job. You can have a white-sounding name and have a better chance at getting a job. That was one clear example.
For the same reason Israelis tell their kids to never forget stories of survival during the Holocaust? Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.
Or alternatively it teaches them to watch their backs. A reasonable survival tactic in a country where you can’t even get a job on account of the fact that a white employer is too much of a coward to tell you to your face that having the name “Tyrone” is the ONLY reason he didn’t call you in for an interview.
These exact problems happened to people in my ethnic group, too. Which is why many (though not all) of us choose to start our own businesses and form our own ethnic communities.
Because ignorance is bliss.
I’d like to see where monstro actually implied ‘Son, there are bullies in the world, so always keep yourself apart from everyone else…’
What she said came across to me as “watch your back”. Again, a reasonable survival tactic in a world where you get rejected for a job for no other reason except your name is Shakwanda. Or Muhammed. Or Chang, Gomez, etc.
Because if their name isn’t Jebediah John Smith they are still quite clearly going to have a tough time getting an interview?
Exactly right.
Are you in the USA? Because the Declaration and the Constitution were both written to PREVENT that kind of mentality. Our forefathers wanted us working together to fight the powers that be, not against each other. The problem isn’t working with your own kind, the problem is realizing that others have good ideas, thoughts, and opinions. And that if each race would shut up and LISTEN more, instead of talking AT each other, we’d all learn, grow, invent, change, EVOLVE into superior human beings. Staying with “your same race” will only serve to keep the thinking the same–and people fighting over who’s right.
I didn’t get a single call back after sending out more than 50 resumes this summer while looking for work. I was more than qualified to do the work I applied for. I can’t think of any other reason I didn’t get a call other than the fact I was too ‘white’ for the positions. No, there is no other reason for them not call me other than because I was ‘white’. None at all. Cowardly bastards not telling me I was too ‘white’ for them.*
I am sure that people have not been hired because of the color of their skin. I’m also pretty sure that it doesn’t happen as often as people would like to think and it has become a crutch that people use to blame the man when they didn’t get the job that 100’s of others applied for.
A book I read recently put this into pretty high contrast – James Loewen’s Sundown Towns. I realize that Mr. Loewen’s name alone is like a red flag to many folks on this Board, but the book merits reading. Until I did, I had no idea of how all-encompassing what this thread calls “white privilege” was and, to a large degree, still is.
as Loewen himself says, when he started his research he expected there to be relatively few “sundown towns” and that they were mainly a Southern phenomenon. (A “sundown town” is or was a town that told blacks they had to be outside the city limits by sundown, a threat often put less politely as “Don’t let the sun set on your black ass in _____”. Many towns had signs to this effect, or sundown sirens. In others, it was all word-of-mouth) In reality, though, it was a widespread phenomenon, extended into the North, and still has lingering vestiges. Sundown towns are not completely a thing of the past.
It used to be that blacks didn’t dare travel, because hotels and motels often wouldn’t put them up. If their car broke down, they might be stranded in a sundown town – with potentially disastrous results. They often couldn’t even purchase gas in such a town, despite the common-sense fact that selling them gas would be the quickest way to speed them out of town. So there came to be guides such as the Green Guide, which told which hotels and motels would let blacks stay, and which businesses would serve them.
http://kiratianatravels.com/2010/08/23/meet-the-first-black-travel-guide-the-negro-motorits-green-guide/
http://bossip.com/279258/the-green-book-a-guide-to-traveling-while-black-73373/
http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Race/R_Casestudy/Negro_motorist_green_bk.htm
Because of the large number of middle-class balcks from the auto industry in Detroit needing a safe vacation spot, Idlewild was born.
http://www.iaacc.com/letters/idlewild.htm
Loewen’s book shows that the segregation spirit of many of those sundown towns lives on in practices and attitudes. There are still places that will give blacks a hard time if they break down, evidently, or which hurl racial epithets at all-black sports teams. Most significant, he shows by census records that many towns once did have significant black populations. the argument that “blacks just didn’t settle here” or “there was no reason for them to come” doesn’t satisfy in view of such figures – something acted to evict the black residents and keept them out for decades. Loewen lists many such known and suspected sundown towns on his website.
So, yes, it seems very clear to me that “white privilege” existed and continues to exist, and as a white individual it’s harder for me to perceive it. I’d be wary of saying that Race Issues are Settled and that WP is a thing of the past.
I’m sorry if it sounded like I was saying you were wrong–I wasn’t. Rather, I noticed your word “usually,” and I wanted to offer up an example in which racial awareness went the other way. I think you’re overall right, especially with the qualifiers. But I wanted to give another facet of the discussion.
And to add another facet, it drives me crazy that there are so few nonwhite teachers at my school. One of my grade-level teachers is one of the very few black teachers at the school, and she talks about a kid who told her early on, “My daddy says I don’t need to do what you say, because we don’t take orders from black people.” She’s a lovely woman with this fantastic asskicker streak, and she took care of that problem right away, but the kind of racism she had to deal with kind of eclipses what I’ve dealt with.
Relative to how common they are in AA households? I think you’re right. I don’t know how common they are relative to Asian or Latino households. I do remember, after one such conversation with my parents as a kid, declaring, “I hate white people!” My parents started over :).
Which kind of gets at something else. The prevailing worry among black families is being subject to racism. The prevailing worry among white families is being subject to accusations of racism. Indeed, I’m much more worried about being accused of racism than I am about being subjected to racist epithets.
I wonder how often black people think about whether their actions are racist–is it on average appreciably less often than white people think about this?
That’s a great question. I know for me, I’m constantly questioning my prejudices. I have both anti-white and anti-black (and anti-other) prejudices that I consciously work against. But I don’t know if I’m typical in my conscientiousness.
I admit that when I catch myself in anti-black bias, I feel worse than I do when I’m being anti-white. Once I assumed a black math professor sitting in on an ecology seminar was a homeless bum…simply because I’d never seen a black professor before (so hey, he must be homeless!) He then stunned me by asking the speaker a series of questions that went right over my peanut head. I felt like banging my head against the wall.
When I was an adjunct professor, I know for a fact that I “rooted” for the black students more than I did the white ones. I didn’t do anything to bump up their grades (at least consciously), but I wouldn’t be surprised if students thought I picked more non-white students to answer questions than white students. I no doubt did. I feel guilty about my bias, but not banging-my-head-against-the-wall guilty. So I guess that’s my own racism shining through.
I’m probably not typical, but I don’t know.
Of course, sometimes it works the other way.
:rolleyes: No, they weren’t.
Um, yeah, they were. The first ammendment is all about freedom: speech, religion, etc. That’s becaue our forefathers knew–this country has such a variety of people from all walks of life trying to free themselves from whatever taxes, laws, and institutions were connected to their homeland. People fled to this country for hope. The US was basically a giant adoption center. Our forefathers knew this, and wanted us to have the right to fight for personal freedom, from them and others.
They also wanted us to have the right to FIGHT for those rights. So they made “the right to bare arms” second. So we can work together, give this big ol’ melting pot of a country solidarity, and stand up to Big Brother(in the future)…if necessary. See, even our forefathers knew…man is selfish and greedy, and if the current government they were establishing in the 1700’s became corrupt, then the FUTURE citizens of The United States would be able to stand up to their government just as our forefathers did. Solidarity(working together) was the driving motivation behind Declaring Independence.