Is there any legitimacy to the Sovereign Citizen argument?

So, I’ve been browsing through a series of fascinating Sovereign Citizen-themed videos on YouTube.

SC’s keep citing things like “Black’s Law Dictionary”, “Maritime Admiralty Law”, “Common Law”, “Corporate Law”, etc.

I was wondering, were the aforementioned laws ever the present and legitimate legal authority anywhere? If so, were they superseded and rendered null by updated legal code and thus the SC’s are behind the times?

Or, are those laws still sitting there on the books somewhere (so to speak) and technically in effect, but everyone in authority ignores them because they’re silly and akin to those old funny laws nobody cares about, like “Women Can’t Smoke on the Sidewalk on Thursdays”, etc.

Or is it a mix?

Do Sovereign Citizens’ actually have any legal claims considered legitimate by anyone who isn’t even remotely insane?

Thanks!

The term here is desuetude.

Here’s a prolonged takedown of one such individual in a Canadian court case, along with an explanation of the various kinds of commonly-raised nuttiness, here:

Link: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html

It’s long, but interesting, and also hilarious.

Nope. Next question ?

This page has a lot of information about them, including a list of their successes (scroll down to Freeman Successes):

The basic premise of the Sovereign Citizens movement is that there are secret laws. For some unknown reason, the government cannot repeal these secret laws. So instead the government tries to hide these secret laws and hopes nobody will find out about them. But Sovereign Citizens claim to know the secret laws and they invoke them. And once they’re invoked the government has no choice other than to obey the secret laws.

This is pretty much nonsense from start to finish.

I’ve spent about 20 years helping other lawyers respond to sovereign citizen arguments.

Not once have the SovCits been successful.

There is no merit to their arguments.

There should be a medal awarded for stuff like that ;).

A segment of the Mearls case

Black’s Law Dictionary is an actual published dictionary. Admiralty Law or Maritime Law (usually called one or the other and Corporate Law are legitimate bodies of law. Common Law developed in the UK, formed the basis of the legal systems of 49 states, and still has some effect today (though a lot of it has been replaced by statutory law). The problem is not that those things don’t exist, it’s that they just don’t work anything like the way sovereign citizens say they do, and most of the specifics that sovereign citizens cite are badly misinterpreted, non-existent, and/or long defunct.

A good example is the claim that income tax is entirely voluntary. What’s actually voluntary is filing a tax return, not paying taxes. As long as you’re paying the IRS what you owe or more and they believe you, you don’t have to file a return (IIRC, IANAL). You won’t get a refund and can’t take deductions, but it’s legal not to file. But SCs take the ‘voluntary’ word and decide it applies to all income tax for no real reason, which is just bunk.

This is a badly phrased question - they certainly have SOME legitimate legal claims, and a stopped clock is right twice a day. The core claims that they make are not legitimate, but if you write enough legal documents some portion of them will have some accuracy by chance somewhere. And sometimes there will be a badly written low-level law that they stumble across and challenge that gets overturned, but that’s not the ‘See? We’re entirely correct!’ victory that they paint it as.

It’s kind of like prostitutes who legitimately believe that if they ask an undercover cop if they are law enforcement, they are compelled by law to answer truthfully.

Take one of the real claims that some Sovereign Citizens have made: that an American flag that has a gold fringe has some legal significance if it’s present in a courtroom and by invoking the right law in such a courtroom, you make it impossible for the legal system to convict you.

Now suppose, for the sake of argument, that this was true. How would the government respond?

  1. Repeal the law that gives gold-fringed flags legal power.
  2. Make sure every courtroom is using the right kind of flag.
  3. Hide all the law books that mention this law and hope nobody ever finds out about it.

Sovereign Citizens are the people who think #3 is the obvious answer.

That’s a good succinct summary of the philosophical problem. Congress passes laws every year modifying laws, if you could really get out of conviction because of the gold-fringed flag why wouldn’t they pass a law closing the loophole or banning gold-fringed flags from courtrooms? The hidden law idea just doesn’t make sense at a very basic level.

What would be hilarious would be if there really was a secret law and the Sovereign Citizen invoked it correctly. And then went to prison anyway because judges and lawyers only act on the laws they’re aware of. A law that nobody knows exists is the same as a law that doesn’t exist.

A lot of those SC bozos end up in Southeast Asia. I knew one in Thailand who was adamantly opposed to the US but happy to take Social Security payments.

Such a fact-free answer is distinctly unhelpful, and is contrary to the premise of this board.

So your contention is that the things mentioned in the OP are actually secret laws, despite centuries of use?

I believe he’s saying that the things mentioned in the OP don’t do and never did the things that SCs think they do.

Of course not. But Sovereign Citizens aren’t using real Common Law and such. They’re using an imaginary set of laws which they claim is based on Common Law.

Which sort of invalidates their argument since a basic tenet of Common Law is that statute trumps common law.

It’s in fact a sort of magical thinking—like how death is said to have to accept a challenge in any game, or the devil is bound by saying the right words, and so on. But these things only work because there is some higher metaphysical authority compelling those actors to obey its dictates; but the law is not a higher metaphysical authority binding government, government is the body that issues law. Or perhaps more broadly, laws are things that societies agree on, rules formulated in some sort of common discourse; it simply makes no logical sense to appeal to any ‘hidden laws’, because laws that nobody knows of simply aren’t laws. It’s like playing chess, and suddenly making an illegal move, claiming it’s a hidden rule—it’s not unless the other players agree on the rule.