Well, if I’m not mistaken suicide, has never been illegal in Japan, and neither has it been an eternal damnation sin, so I’d be amazed if there wasn’t a different cultural mindset.
According to the timeline of events on CNN the tsunami hit less than an hour after the 5th largest earthquake in recorded history. What should they feel suicidal about not having accomplished to keep the backup generators working in that tiny timeframe?
Certainly, there are cultural differences, some large and some small, which are in play. The question is what cultural differences and what cross cultural similarities are involved.
As you point out, there are differences within countries. Middle class Americans tend to have attended more years of schooling, for example than some other groups. There are large, at times seemingly huge differences between generations in the same social economic group.
Obviously you understand this, but there are many people who tend to look at foreign cultures as monolithic groups, the French or the Japanese, to name a couple who are frequent recipients of this. There is a world of difference between the great generation of corporate warriors in their late 40s and 50s – men who were raised up by the last of the people who had directly experienced WWII and who knew the poverty and national sacrifice which took to overcome it – and the “freeters,” kids (yes, I’m at that age when people in their early 20s are now “kids”) who are rejecting the mindless requirements for endless overtime and devotion to a mindless corporation, and getting by with strings of part time jobs.
I agree on the emphasis on making things go smoothly, and for taking responsibility for fixing problems. However, I wonder if it becomes necessary for people to take a perhaps fatal risk, does it cross over into heroic measures which seems to be common to all cultures? This is no longer the level of meiwaku (inconvenience) for others. It’s a matter of someone fixing the problem or others die, then it seems to me that a different psychological factor is involved.
They are The Expendables.
There is a classic joke about a ship which was sinking and the captain realized there wasn’t enough room in the life boats, so he had to ask four men to stay behind. There was an English man, an American, a German and a Japanese. To the Englishman he said that “gentlemen give their seats to women and children.” To the American, he said that “it’s a chance to be a hero.” To the German, “It’s the rules.” And to Japanese, he said that “all the other men are doing this.” A Japanese guy told me this joke which works well in both cultures.
Sure, it’s a stereotype, but there may be some truth to it. Of the three points which you make, I would rank this as the one I see as the more likely.
OTOH, when the Tokaimura incident occurred, one of the nuclear workers volunteered by telling the younger staff that he had already had children so he would make a sacrifice. It was reading about that incident which has me thinking of this as the “brave man” scenario.
I’m not sure how to evaluate this. Would a Christian see his values as being more likely requiring self sacrifice or self preservation? As a former devote Christian, I can’t see how placing oneself in potential harm’s way could be seen as suicide, a deliberate act to end one’s life. If so, then what do firemen, policemen and solders do on a daily basis?
If I’m missing your point, please clarify, but I can’t see this as a factor.
There are cultural differences which factor in suicides. However, that is immaterial to the quote from me, which concerns the people who are remaining to work at the station. I doubt if they are considering this deliberate suicide.
As I see the problem, it is the fault of people responsible for anticipating that the generators needed to be placed in a location where the tsunami would affect them, and not at the people who were working that shift, and who could likely have been helpless to do anything. This is where organizations are often weak, and there is less of a sense of personal responsibility than say the airline crash or the Tokaimura incident where is was directly related to the workers’ actions.
I’m not trying to argue that sacrificing one’s life should be considered suicide, especially if the death is not a sure thing, but that different cultures may have different considerations which go into whether or not to take that heroic action to save others.
I vaguely recall a funny passage from an old Japanese text, I think the Heiki Monogatari, where the ship was captured or something, so all the men bravely jumped overboard to commit suicide. But this guy realized he wasn’t dead, only bobbing in the water. He looked around for awhile trying to figure out what to do and saw another guy deciding to grab onto a piece of wood, and so he was happy to follow this new trend. Obviously it couldn’t be too shameful to live if others decided to do it first. (I know, you’ll say that’s fiction and was written hundreds of years ago, so it doesn’t apply. :p)
I think we can agree on that there may be different considerations of what circumstances call for sacrifices. There will also be differences in when society will call for such scarifies. Wars seem to be universal, but there is getting to be less acceptance of the loss of life in the West. I remember one British general’s comment in the Falklands war that they could not longer use the same tactics as in the past because of the unacceptable loss of lives.
I’ll take your fictional references to suicidal actions, and will raise you one.
Of course, it’s Hollywood, so you’ll say it’s just a movie. 
I’m also interested if there was anyone after Mishima? (I mean any other high profile incident, because if you want to be pendantic then Masakatsu Morita was after Mishima 
)
In regards to my earlier comment about Tokyo Electric’s hands being dirty in this incident and that I would not be shocked to see someone take their life (although I do not think it is “likely” ), in 1985 Hiroo Tominaga, the maintenance supervisor at Haneda from where a JAL jumbo jet that crashed (killing over 500 people) took off, killed himself to atone for the crash.
I am not certain if he was the one who approved the faulty repairs (some nine years earlier) that led to the crash, or if he was the maintenance supervisor on the day the plane crashed, or both, but the point is he apparently felt he was responsible by virtue of being in charge, not for actually having done the faulty repairs.
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/22/world/jal-official-dies-apparently-a-suicide.html
Although not seppuku, he stabbed himself in the chest and throat. Personally, that sounds like some serious atonement.
The Japanese Wikipedia article on the specific plane involved in the crash also states that the pilot who was responsible for the tail-dragging incident that necessitated the repairs that led to the fatal crash (nine years before the fatal crash), also subsequently killed himself. I could not find any confirmation or more details than that, though, or a clear statement that he did it out of a sense of responsibility as opposed to other reasons.
Yep!! I remember that. It was not just officers, and it was not just Kamakazi either. Even Women civilians committed suicide instead of allowing themselves to be captured. I had several uncles, and several good close friends in the Pacific Theater fighting the Japanese. They told me everything.
Frankly, I am as surprised as you are.
The lack of suicides today regarding the unsafe Nuclear plants is certainly a puzzle all right.
If things aren’t happening the way you think they should happen, you should question whether your idea of what should happen is correct rather than puzzle over the facts as if they might be wrong.
I never said “should”.
I never predicted.
That so many Japanese killed themselves in WW2 is a** fact**, and it is** “correct”.** The facts are NOT wrong. Facts are never wrong.
The puzzle: is the inconsistency between the extreme way so many Japanese behaved in ww2, and what we see now.
I have not weighed in on the veracity of your claims about WWII. But don’t you think there is a difference between being captured by the enemy in wartime and being somehow, maybe partially responsible for a nuclear reactor incident during an earhquake/tsunami? How many people committed suicide at Toyota over the supposed acceleration problem?
You are combining a lack of knowledge about Japanese society and culture with a conflating of two entirely different situations.
Originally Posted by Susanann
I never said “should”.
I never predicted.
That so many Japanese killed themselves in WW2 is a fact, and it is “correct”. The facts are NOT wrong. Facts are never wrong.
The puzzle: is the inconsistency between the extreme way so many Japanese behaved in ww2, and what we see now.
But of course!! obviously!! at least so far, which is why, which is the point of this topic. The facts appear to be that the Japanese today, esp those responsible for the nuclear reactors(and their construction, maintenance, placement, and destruction), are NOT committing suicide in large numbers. Given past history… Why aren’t they? What are the differences and what is the likelihood of future suicides?
( Your lack of knowledge about Japanese society and culture in the past as most vividly displayed during WW2, combining with a lack of knowledge of how the Japanese are reacting/will react today in today’s different situation prevents you from seeing “the puzzle” , and is preventing you from seeing
why this topic question itself is now being asked.)
Why would they? The reactors in Japan were hit by a once in a thousand year tsunami, yet haven’t caused a single death or injury from radiation. What possible cause would there be for any suicides?
Have you ever been to Japan? I’ve spent a lot of time in Japan, and I know a think or two about Japanese society and culture.
We have plenty of posters here from Japan that have already told you why this isn’t happening. I’m not sure why you are so reluctant to let go of your inaccurate stereotype.
Supermoon tonight. Brings out the crazies on this side of the Pacific.
You seem to misunderstand. I do not buy that someone could have “absolutely predicted” this particular quake and its ensuing tsunami. After all, it’s pretty darn obvious that nobody expects someone to build a freaking massive sea wall in less than a bloody half-hour.
In short: I buy that the engineers involved built the reactor for the most probable incidents.
Isao Inokuma, in 2001. He had won the Gold for Japan in Judo in the 1964 Tokyo Olympics. He went on to become the CEO of Tokai Kensetsu, and then in 2001, when the company was in financial trouble, he did it. He was really the only notable person after Mishima to do it.
Oh, apparently in 2000, some Quebec nationalist/rock singer did so too.
It’s been 70 years, and cultures can change a lot in 70 years. Plus WWII Japan was weird, by Japanese standards, I mean. The government in WWII was pushing this militaristic nationalism that it linked with this fictionalized concept of Bushido, which explains why some of the military officers did so.
The big places that Japanese civilians committed suicide during the war were Saipan and Okinawa, and the big reason for that on Saipan was that the Japanese government spread the lie that the American Marines, when they took the island, would torture the men to death and rape the women to death. So, that, for the most part, wasn’t a cultural thing. It was just fear on the Japanese part and an attitude that a quick death would be better than a slow painful death.
On Okinawa, you had that belief (that the Americans would brutalize them when the islands surrendered) and also, in addition, you had the Japanese Army going around forcing civilians to kill their neighbors and families to commit suicide. So it wasn’t really a voluntary thing.
So I think most of the suicides during the war by civilians and enlisted men (there were some generals and higher ranking officers who committed seppuku) were primarily due to fear of mistreatment during capture and coercion by the army. Obviously, neither of those apply in this case. Plus, this was, as has been said, a pretty clear natural disaster and not a major screwup by anybody. So while a lot of the Japanese are feeling sadness because of what happened and a determination to fix the problem and save each others’ lives, there’s not really any source of guilt or shame there.
You are demonstrating, quite eloquently, your utter lack of understanding of modern Japanese culture and mindsets. Even Mishima’s coup attempt and subsequent seppuku forty years ago was rooted in his concept of pre-WW2 Japan. Even forty years ago he was regarded as a nutcase. Does that perhaps tell you something about the extent of your misconception of Japanese culture?
Does anyone else think harakiri sounds a bit like ‘Hello Kitty’?
Would it be dignified to commit seppuku with a Hello Kitty tantō or Hello Kitty wakizashi?