Is there any recourse for dubious modding?

I apologize for the delay in returning here. For most of the last year and for the foreseeable future, I spend most of my time in the hospital caring for family members and/or being treated myself and so I find it very difficult to participate here in a timely fashion.

This post is in regards to my complaint about Marley’s reading comprehension levels.

First, a note: There should be a forum in which we can discuss moderation and mods’ decisions where just mods and admins can participate. Doing this kind of thing in an open thread is largely – if not primarily – a siren call for conformists and authoritarians to abuse people who have grievances with authority. One not only has to challenge authority, one has to get past all the people who love authority and will punish non-conformists. There has to be a better way.

[/soap box]

Okay, here’s the deal with Marley. I wrote an angry retort to orcenio in the EP thread that I knew merited a warning. The warning, from Marley, was entirely justified and I never imagined anything different, and I told him that many times. I even concluded that post by admitting that I knew I had crossed the line and that I offered no excuse because I knew there was no excuse.

Instead, what I objected to was that Marley – throughout more than 10 PMs – kept accusing me of a significant moral offense: He kept accusing me of trying to cheat and weasel my way out of that warning. In my first PM, I told him that while the warning was fully justified, I found his continuing accusations of weaseling and cheating to be insulting and that I was offended by it.

Now, I could have phrased the end note more on that post more clearly. When I wrote there that I didn’t need a warning, I meant that I didn’t need a warning to tell me I had crossed far over the line because I had just admitted that. And when the warning came, I wrote over and over that I fully deserved it and that I had no complaint about the warning itself whatsoever.

However, he kept accusing me of trying to cheat and weasel, which is grossly unfair and insulting and offensive and is a moral approbation that I did NOT merit.

I would have let it lie after the first PM, but Marley kept PMing me to tell me that he didn’t understand why I was offended. I then explained again, whereupon Marley kept PMing me to tell me that he didn’t understand why I was offended.

But he absolutely could not comprehend what I was saying, as witnessed by each and every PM he sent me. He kept sending me PMs saying he didn’t understand why I was offended, but that I shouldn’t have tried to weasel and cheat my way out of that warning!

Over and over again, he wrote comments such as “I don’t know what you find offensive”.

His reading comprehension was simply awful.

He was locked in a kind of apparently never-ending loop. Here’s how I summarized it in a PM:

He also insulted me by telling me that my posts weren’t “important.” Since when is it a moderator’s job to assign value judgments of what is, and what is not, important? Telling me what I was trying to say “isn’t important” is an insult in itself. If a rule was enforced that one could only write “important” things, who and how would that value judgment be made?

So, when I asked if there was any recourse in my OP, I wasn’t asking for Marley to be reassigned. I was asking for ideas, not ordering changes. One idea floating in my head was that Marley might voluntarily recuse himself from future moderation of my posts in GD. But as I think on that possibility now, I can see how unworkable and patently absurd that would be in both concept and practice, for it would be akin to special pleading and favoritism and pose all kinds of ludicrous complications, so I withdraw all of that.

But the larger issue remains: Punishments can be severe (though again, I admit I deserved the warning in question). As such, if you can’t make a mod understand such a ever-so-slightly subtle distinction as being offended not by the warning but by the moral insults accompanying it – even in ten back and forth PMs – how much confidence can we have that a mod is sufficiently capable of making the kind of subtle distinctions and judgments that the job calls for?

(And I expect to pay still more for my presumption in even posting this and my OP).

Yes, I entirely agree. That’s my point!

I think you haven’t taken sufficient account of the full context. For example, what’s up with your concentrating on length in this context?

I couldn’t get you to go back and re-read it, could I?

He had bashed me in three posts and treated me very smarmily and condescendingly. In my anger, I failed in my responsibilities by attacking him personally, which definitely crossed the line. But in the follow-up post in question, I changed my ways. I offered a sincere apology for my personal insults. I told him I was going to criticize his views rather than him as a person. I went out of my way to tell him that while I found his views to be infantile, I did not find him to be infantile.

I put it to you that that your assertion that I crossed the line is unjust. The rule about crossing the line by attacking the person in the guise of attacking the view is not violated when the poster goes out of his way to apologize for the previous approach and explicitly state that the poster does not merit the criticism I feel his views deserve.

I am not concerned about this particular incident. I am concerned that you appear to be redefining the rules for the future.

Crotalus, one fact you’re missing is that I tried to end it after one PM. But Marley kept PMing me telling me he didn’t understand why I was offended by his accusation of trying to cheat and weasel. I replied with a new attempt at explaining it, then he sent me another PM telling me he didn’t understand why I was offended! This happened ten times before I begged him to stop PM’ing me.

Did you try not responding to his PMs?

I am particularly bad IRL at wriggling free of undesirable conversations but even I manage to not answer and even the worst bores stop talking when you stop responding.

If he continued to PM you when you didn’t answer his previous ones, then I might take your flag but if you were just trying to get the last word, don’t be surprised if your counterpart plays the same game.

Zoe said:

I would say not only possible, but likely.

ambushed said:

I’m much more concerned about the posters who take any complaint as a chance to make it their complaint, and drag in any other beefs they have. We can’t have a conversation about some issue without certain other people popping in with “the moderators suck” or else dredging up their past issues again. Just read this thread for examples of both.

With respect, the section you quoted does not come off as a sincere apology and attempt to aim at the views rather than the poster, it comes off as:

“I’m not calling you an idiot, I’m saying that your views are the views of an idiot. See, that’s not an insult about you, but about your views.”

In other words, you are seeking to squeeze in the words “infantile” as much as possible in a way you can claim is directed at the views and not the poster. By harping on the point, you just make it seem like you are trying to skirt the “no insults” rule. If you’re really sincere, stop trying to characterize the views and start addressing how they are lacking.

Because you said it was not necessary to warn you when in fact it was.

I repeatedly apologized for hurting your feelings. I repeatedly tried to move the conversation past that issue and bring it to a conclusion. You would not allow me to do that.

I dropped this as soon as you said you misspoke, and if you’d phrased it better in the first place I never would have brought it up.

This is not true. I said, one time, that “You don’t get brownie points for admitting you know what the rules are and then breaking them anyway. But I appreciate it if you’re planning to stay inside the lines in the future.” I did not repeat this.

This is not true either. At one point you left the boards for a week and then resumed the conversation again! How can you accuse me of pestering you in that situation?

I dropped this issue after maybe the second PM.

I believe I said this twice. And one of those two times, I was saying I did not understand why you flew off the handle at orcenio’s post.

The implication that I “would not stop PMing you” is ridiculous. I responded to your messages to me, that’s all. And I repeatedly tried to bring our conversation to a close, since we were both repeating ourselves and it was tiresome. You wouldn’t get off your high horse and move on. For example, I said:

“Since we are in agreement that the statement deserved a warning, and since we agree that there won’t be any further problems if you don’t do this again, I don’t think there is anything left to discuss.”

and

“I don’t know what you think we still have to discuss. I’ve repeatedly stressed the points we agree on (which are all the important ones) and tried to move past the other stuff, but you are refusing to let it go.”

But you had to keep disputing one minor point or another.

That’s not what I said. I said you overreacted to orcenio and that you blew the issue out of proportion. And I stand by that because it’s true. My exact words were “you’ve written thousands of words about something that was neither important nor complicated in the first place.” From your “hillbilly” insults to your Pitting of orcenio to your tone in our PMs and in this thread, you have overreacted to a ludicrous extent.

The bottom line is this: you acted like a jerk, and you appeared to be asking for special treatment. I dropped the “I don’t need a warning” issue after you acknowledged your miscommunication.

You’ve paid no price at all.

This is pure bullshit. You were not willing to end it after one PM. You said you were offended I did not acknowledge your ‘I know Tom or other mod’ note and demanded an explanation and an apology for “your flagrantly unequal and thus unjust treatment to me?”

ambushed, ending a discussion is a process over which you have unilateral control. Stop opening the PMs, stop answering the PMs, and stop thinking about it.

It is interesting to me that you frequently attribute disagreement with your positions with “missing” something, or to reading comprehension issues. You should consider the possibility that most of the people reading your posts understand what you are saying, and disagree with you anyway.

Obviously, you are just missing the point. No purpose in continuing this discussionl.

** ambushed,** anyone ever tell you you talk too much? It appears your own “reading comprehension” is impaired or inadequate.

SmellMyWort sums our exchange very elegantly in that pit thread you opened up about me (Remember it? The thread, to which you refuse to contribute/engage anyone, titled “Your toothless, 61-times pregnant sister-momma slurps it from Army boots, orcenio.” There are many unanswered posts still just waiting for you.

I rejected the sincerity of your dubious apology for reasons clearly outlined by Irishman/Marley23/tomndebb in this thread and the GD one. Ya know what. Instead of discussing this here, why don’t you come back to that pit thread you started. I, also, can be a little more free in my own posts.

I just read the first couple pages of the Pit thread. HOLY CRAP!

ambushed, in light of all you posted there and your summary of what you think the exchange was, I can only say that

  1. you were WAY overreacting to orcenio in the first thread;

  2. taking the whole context (as you keep reminding everyone to do), it is thoroughly unbelievable that you were sincere in any kind of apology to orcenio, or for your behavior in the original thread. Ergo, your repititious description of orcenio’s posts as “infantile” just reeks that much more of trying to skirt the “no insults to posters” rule.

  3. I didn’t take orcenio’s use of “philosophy majors” to mean you were an idiot, but rather a pretentious blowhard. So your entire string of rants about orcenio insulting you are based on misinterpreting the “insult” he was giving you.

  4. after what I’ve read of the above exchanges, I am thoroughly convinced that it is not Marley23 that has the reading comprehension problem.