Is there no man's land left ?

Title says it all, really. Apart from the poles and the Moon, which AFAIK have been declared no-no in terms of individual or national ownership, are there still bits and pieces of land out there that belong to no one and have no flag flying over them ?

Technically Marie Byrd Landand Bir Tawil Triangle would qualify.
Aside from those…there are quite a few disputed areas claimed by several countries… and some oddities like the Principality of Sealand, but no unclaimed land. Any new islands to form that break surface within exclusive economic zone (200miles) of a country are generally considered their property. So, it’s unlikely any will appear in the near future.

Why, thinking of becoming the supreme ruler of your own country?

No Man’s Land usually refers to bits and pieces that are contested in a war, but neither side can control.

My father-in-law’s family was from Iraq, and in the 1950s, the Jews in Iraq were kicked out and he settled in Israel near Jerusalem.

Back then, Jerusalem was divided between the Jordanians and the Israelis. There were several areas that were controlled by neither side and were no man’s lands by the 1948 armistice agreement. My father-in-law’s family was put into a garage with a dirt floor. Late into the night, he snuck into the no-man’s land and took tiles from the floors of the houses in that area.

Of course, the 1967 war put Jerusalem entirely under Israeli jurisdiction, and the no man’s land disappeared.

The only area I can think of is the Siachen Glacier glacier in Kashmir that is controlled neither by the Indians or the Pakistanis. India claims the whole of Kashmir, but this is an area that is controlled by neither the Pakistanis, the Chinese, or the Indians and in most maps, a line of control simply goes down the middle (usually dotted).

There use to be a no-man’s land area in the Joint Security Area between North and South Korea. However, in 1976 what is called the Axe Murder Incident occurred when a team of Korean and U.N. solders attempted to trim a tree that were blocking the line of site view from the U.N central command post to a couple of checkpoints and observation posts.

The North Koreans knew about the tree trimming, and it had been approved by them. But, the North Koreans attacked and killed two American solders who were trimming the tree. The North Korean solders claimed that Kim Il Sung (the previous president of North Korea) personally planted and nourished that particular tree which is now growing under his personal supervision.

After that, the Joint Security Area was divided between the North and South Koreans.

And, between Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and between Saudi Arabia and Iraq, there use to be two neutral zones. But, these were divided up between the three countries back in the 1970s (although they didn’t tell anyone for years). In fact, there’s an official “Neutral Zone” Internet domain name suffix much like many countries have. However, it is not active.

That’s pretty interesting.

Yes. It’s like an international diplomacy edition of Hot Potato.

Egypt: “Here, you can have this piece of land.”
Sudan: “Oh, no, no…I insist that you take it.”
Egypt: “I just couldn’t do that to you! Do please take the acreage, as you deserve!”
Sudan: “I must insist that you allow us the honor and pleasure of gifting that piece of land to you!”

Meanwhile, they’re both glancing sidelong at the neighboring Ha’laib Triangle, which actually has some useful land in it, and trying to figure out how they can grab it without getting their hair mussed. The entire modern history of that little area consists of Egypt trying to get Ha’laib and foist Bir Tawil off on Sudan and vice versa. They both claim Ha’laib and neither claims Bir Tawil.

I feel bad for the Bir Tawilians. It’s worse than getting picked last in a game of international dodgeball, since the game hasn’t started because the team captains are still arguing over who has to take Bir Tawil on their team.

So, a desert, a piece of subzero real estate and a barren glacier. Figures there wouldn’t be a tropical paradise free for the taking…

Which touches upon another question I had : I know the Sealand precedent makes room for artificial islands to become sovereign nations (of sorts) if they are in international waters, but how about underwater stuff ? Say I build myself a sunken city like the ones Commander Cousteau dreamed about, could I declare the land it sits on mine, with its own territorial waters ?

Well, yes. Who doesn’t ? :slight_smile:

But the actual question came from wondering if exile as a punishment for crimes would still be feasible today - as I doubt dumping criminals just beyond the border of a neighbouring country would make friends within said country.

so could someone go there and declare their own independent kingdom?

Note that the situation is not exactly that it’s unclaimed, as such - Egypt claims it belongs to Sudan, and Sudan claims it belongs to Egypt. I suspect if you tried to do something like that, and actually established a permanent presence in the area, you’d have both Sudan and Egypt saying “You can’t do that … it belongs to THOSE guys”, and putting pressure on each other to do something about the squatters. Eventually, if you were seen as a real threat, one or the other, or both, would roust you.

Why can’t a huge vessel declar itself an independent state? Say it was built in international waters by people of many countries, it does not carry a flag. What are the maritimes rules on this

similar

So there aren’t a few islands out in the Pacific that are too isolated or too small for any nation to bother claiming?

There’s also the Green Line dividing Cyprus. It’s the buffer zone running between the part of the island controlled by the Republic of Cyprus and the part controlled by the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Three hundred and forty-six square kilometers of prime Mediterranean real estate.

Another Straight Dope perennial. Sure, you can declare your atomic submarine to be an independent country. But this will have the same legal force as declaring your living room to be an independent country. The real-life answer is that you can declare any part of the world to be independent, but no other country in the world will agree to pretend you are independent.

They’ll treat you exactly the same as before. If you refuse to pay your taxes, the IRS won’t care that you declared independence, they’ll want their taxes. If you’re out on the open seas, you’ll have to abide by Maritime law, or face the consequences. If you’re stopped by the coast guard or navy of a random country, they’ll treat you just like they’d treat any other vessel.

Of course, if you have your own military forces, and when the coast guard tries to board your vessel you fire on them and fight them off, well, the practical consequence is that you can do whatever you like, until they come back with more ships and guns. Fight them off long enough and you’ve got yourself a de facto independent country. But you’re still probably never going to get any other country to recognize you. Look at the situation of Taiwan, or Kurdistan. These are areas with millions of residents, they have their own legal systems, they control their borders, they have armies that can enforce their claims, they act in every way like independent countries, yet no one else will agree to pretend they are independent countries.

So go ahead and move to an uninhabited island, and declare yourself independent. But when the cops come to arrest you for living in a national park or whatever, don’t expect them to care. If you keep a low profile you don’t have to worry about the cops–but then you’re not an independent country, you’re just a crazy guy who lives in the woods.

Not only that, but they’ll fine you $5,000 right off the bat for making a frivolous tax claim. :slight_smile:

No. Especially with the declaration of economic zones around even the smallest specks of islands, fishing rights and possibly mineral rights make them too valuable for them to be overlooked.

Here’s a map of marine claims in the Pacific.

Yeah you’d think no-one would bother with Rockall but they do. :slight_smile:

I expected that link to show the entire Pacific sectioned off. But there’s an awful lot of unclaimed water there. If a volcano suddenly erupts and creates a new island, it would be up for grabs, right?

That SAS man’s month and a half on that stump of rock must have been a right laugh. :slight_smile:

Yes, but it wouldn’t be up for grabs to YOU–it would be up for grabs between the various countries that have some sort of claims in the region.

You can’t just move to a new volcanic island and expect people to pretend that you’ve started a new country. Why would the United States, for example, recognize your claim? In other words, national sovereignty exists because it’s too much hassle for other countries to ignore it.

I can’t just go waltzing into Spain and claim its land for Lemurtopia, because the Spanish cops will arrest me. The United States can’t waltz into Spain and annex it, because the Spanish army will fight them, and even if we beat the Spanish army we’d be dealing with all kinds of unpleasant fallout, and for what?

Yes, it’s certainly true that there are various micro-countries that couldn’t put up an effective resistance to annexation by a larger power, but the main reason these countries aren’t annexed is because all the other countries have a vested interest in the concept of national sovereignty. Annex Lichtenstein today, and tomorrow they’ll annex the Sudetenland, and the day after tomorrow Poland. So large powerful countries with armies and navies have an interest in preserving international order, and the value of annexing Lichtenstein is much lower than the value of preserving the international order.

But what interest do powerful countries have in allowing you to claim islands for yourself? None. You’re nobody, and allowing you to pretend to be your own country harms the international order they wish to preserve. So they won’t agree to pretend you’re an independent country, instead they’ll ignore you, or if you cause trouble, they’ll arrest you, and if you resist arrest they’ll shoot you.

Of course, if you lead a successful national liberation movement, and are so successful at fighting that you convince the parent country to recognize you, then all the other countries will line up and agree. So Eritrea is a country. But you’re not going to be.

I was within about a hundred km of Bir Tawil when I was in Sudan last year. I guess I should have gone and claimed it.