Is "thinking" the problem?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Well, I have a lot in mind to say here.

With the OP you are hitting at one of the basic tenets of Buddhism, which holds that we suffer because we actively resist things we don’t like and actively crave things we do like.

Example: You stub your toe. You experience pain, which is inevitable.

But say you stub your toe, you experience pain, and you can’t let it go. ‘‘Woe is me!’’ you cry. ‘‘I have stubbed my toe! Oh Og, it hurts so badly! I wish I had not stubbed my toe? Why do I always have to be the one to stub my toe! It is so fundamentally unfair! I can’t be happy if I’m experiencing pain all of the time…’’ etc.

Now you aren’t just experiencing pain, you are perpetuating your own suffering with your active resistance to the inevitability of pain.

Just a little bit of basic observation will reveal to you that people do this all the damned time. We do it with physical pain, with emotional pain, and with potential pain and past pain, and we do it so regularly that we don’t even realize we’re doing it. And for those of us who have serious anxiety or depression issues, these thoughts will nail us into the ground, render us immobile, breed darker, more dangerous thoughts, which then physically depress and/or arouse us more, etc. It is a vicious cycle.

These aren’t really only Buddhist observations. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, as SpoilerVirgin mentioned upthread, is founded upon the basic principle that people are neurotic because they think unhelpful thoughts and do unhelpful things (this is not in any way meant to be opposed to the notion that people are neurotic because of chemical imbalances… the idea is that thoughts and behavior affect brain chemistry.) The efficacy of CBT is supported by a VAST body of scientific evidence. As someone who has practiced both CBT and Zen Buddhism, they are similar in many key ways.

There is a book by Eckhart Tolle I am currently reading called The Power of Now, which so far is basically Zen Buddhism dressed up in new-agey robes, but I have found it to be really eye-opening for a couple of reasons. In Zen Buddhism, thoughts are regarded as essentially natural phenomenon that are to be neither ignored or indulged in – total, nonjudgmental acceptance of thoughts without buying into them as absolute truth. Metaphors I have seen used for thoughts include drifting clouds, rolling waves, etc. You get the picture – inevitable, natural, impermanent.

But Mr. Tolle looks at thoughts a bit differently – as concrete building blocks, a means to an end, useful only insofar as they help you accomplish things. 90% of thoughts, Tolle counters, are useless and/or destructive, unnecessary. We have a measure of control over what we consciously think, therefore we must learn to separate the wheat from the chaff and banish the chaff.

I have personally found this perspective to be a lot more helpful for my mental health than the Zen Buddhist one. It is essentially the same idea–certainly any Buddhist will acknowledge the useful potential of thinking–but I never heard it quite put that way before. I intend to start a thread in CS once I finish this book to see if anyone else got the same impression from reading this book. In the last two weeks, just thinking about thinking in this way has brought a sense of peace and self-control I’ve never experienced before.

And finally – for me personally, spiritually, a big part of accepting death means accepting the impermanent nature of all things. If you are really into this concept, the problem of death and the root of anxiety, I strongly to advise you read Thich Nhat Hahn’s No Death, No Fear. It is beautifully written, simple, to the point, and has a lot to offer this conversation.

22

Olivesmarch4th, the Buddhist approach of detachment is fascinating and I’ve spent years enjoying it or doubting it or noticing it.

The problem is, we’re only animals, the children of life’s longing for itself (as they say). Yes, we have emotions, we crave what we like.

That’s what emotions are for. That’s ALL emotions are for.

Emotions are the parts of our brain that pick goals.

You can pick and reach goals more effectively, in a sense, if you can set aside your emotions. But wait - what are goals for? Goals aren’t for anything. Goals are the things that everything else is for or against. They’re axiomatic. They come from your emotions - or from someplace you weren’t designed to get them from, otherwise. You can’t pick them without emotion. Without emotion, you can only pretend to pick them. Without picking them, you can only pretend to emotion.

Buddhism is correct in observing that the attachment to outcome is what causes the pain. But, why exactly would they be correct in thinking that this observation is somehow useable? Is there an unspoken benefit in skipping the pain? Why would that be?

23

An unspoken benefit to skipping pain? That IS the benefit. Why suffer needlessly? :confused:

24

Why be so terrified of suffering that one avoids thinking, emotions and desires?

The whole thing smacks of Fear of Existence. Which is pretty much what it is when the entire goal is to end one’s travels on the Wheel.

Good things happen, bad things happen. Enjoy the good things. Work toward more good things. Don’t be crushed by the bad things. Work to make less bad things happen.

Fear, Desire, all those things…are only bad when taken to extremes. Fear and Desire keep us alive. They give us reasons to protect ourselves, to change ourselves. They are a part of life and a part of us. Being so afraid of them that we seek to destroy them within ourselves really only destroys our souls.

I have learned from experience that when you try to split yourself apart to rid yourself of something you don’t like that is really a part of who and what you are, the only thing that you succeed in doing is splitting yourself apart. And that it can take a long time and a lot of pain to put things back together afterward.

25

I have talked to a lot of people who interpret Buddhism this way, who think that the ultimate Nirvana, from a Buddhist perspective, is death. I really don’t interpret it the same way. If one avoided thinking, emotions, and desires, one would likely suffer a lot, because these are inevitable. The point is complete and total nonjudgment and non-identification with those desires. There is a clear difference, Buddhism-wise, between pain and suffering. Pain is inevitable – sadness, anger, frustration – all an inherent part of being human. But it is our identification and judgment of those emotions that causes the suffering.

The idea is to experience life at its purest and most immediate form. Being sad, weeping from joy, or even setting goals in life are not by any means considered undesirable. They are all a natural part of human experience. The suffering comes in when we struggle to avoid what is. Sure, you act in ways to minimize pain in your life, but that pain will someday come back to you is as inevitable as the rising sun. And when it does come back, you will be better off not judging or identifying with the pain. You are better off not thinking, '‘Hey, I shouldn’t be sad. It’s my fault I’m sad. It’s _______‘s fault I’m sad. I’m going to be sad forever! I’m always sad!’’ The truth is, right now, you are experiencing sadness. That is your present reality, and the sooner you open yourself to that experience instead of trying to resist it, the less you will suffer.

And if you DO go there, it’s no help to further think, ‘‘God, I’m such a terrible Buddhist for identifying with my pain. I’m not doing the right thing, I shouldn’t be so identified with my pain…’’ You see these things can really spiral out of control.

My husband, I might mention, is not a Buddhist. He spends a great deal of time in thought, and his life is very much centered on future goals, but he is a deeply happy person. This isn’t a lesson he needs, and I certainly don’t think everyone will find these ideas useful. But for the very neurotic, for which overwhelming emotions always seem to be cropping up, breeding negative thought cycles and so-forth, I think it’s a stroke of genius.

In terms of whether disidentifying with your thoughts and desires constitutes a kind of ‘‘death,’’ I think the missing piece here is impermanence. One of the most important tenets of Buddhism is the inevitability of change. Everything is always changing, even on the tiniest molecular level we live in a state of constant motion and manifestation. Because of this fact, and the simple nature of cause and effect, the Buddhist concludes that everything is a part of the existence of everything else–this is called ‘‘equanimity’’ or ‘‘no-self.’’ With equanimity, ‘‘I’’ and ‘‘you’’ are essentially an illusion. This doesn’t actually mean I don’t exist – verily, it means I exist, but I am not only this body, I am Everything in the Known Universe and So Are You. It is existence on a much grander scale!

I don’t think of this as death. I think of it as a whole other kind of greater life. I say this because you can’t talk about the extinction of desire and craving without giving impermanence and equanimity a mention, because they all have an inextricable relationship. Even death itself is an illusion to a Buddhist – to paraphrase Thich Nhat Hahn, we are all the waves that roll onto the shore, individual manifestations that rise and fall, but we always remain a part of the ocean, we are never not the ocean. The ocean is our fundamental nature, and that nature, of course, is change.

waggles fingers mysteriously

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

26

Well said and thanks.

One of the problems I have with a lot of pseudo-eastern philosophies is that they end up twisted versions of the worst form of Catholicism. That is, a harsh hypocrisy of Guilt, Shame and DO NOT. Every idea is “don’t do this, it’s wrong.” Action? Nope, INaction is the goal. Desires? Those are evil. Goals? Whoa, don’t go there. Pure evil. Judging another? You Monster!!! And on and on and on.

Carol K. Anthony’s Guide to the I Ching is a good example of this. It’s a scorching mix of hypocrisy and judgmentalism trying to convince itself that it’s peaceful and nice.

These things end up being a neat little package of death. “Everything you do is wrong.”

27

A magnesium deficiency can cause roaming and circular thoughts. Not saying that it is as simple as this, but I would take a magnesium supplement to see if it helps. It helped me with a similar problem…