Is this a bad idea? (college education)

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m not quite sure I fully appreciate the pros and cons of some choices I’m about to make in my college education, and would appreciate some opinions. And actually, after reading my own post, I’ve realized this is much longer than I expected, so if you want, just skip to the end.

I’m a 3rd year computer engineering student in a co-op education program, which makes it a five year program. I had to repeat one of my semesters, which delayed my graduation by a full year due to the way the semesters are set up. This means that I am on the track for a six year Bachelor’s degree, which sounds bad enough already. I’ve done two semesters since (including the one I had to repeat), and I’ve done much better, but now I am not so sure computer engineering is for me.

Let me first say that I’m not sure if the path I’m contemplating below is possible, and that I will find out shortly. However, I figure I may as well become more informed in the mean time, and that is where you will hopefully come in.

I want to transfer into electrical engineering (and probably minor in computer engineering), but I have realized this is practically impossible without delaying my graduation by another year, so I dismissed the idea. Basically, if I transferred into electrical engineering, I would have the entire year of 2007 to do a work term. However, if I were to study abroad for a semester, I could basically work for the first four months in 2007, then have 12 months to study abroad/work. This second option is much more appealing to me, but of course, this means that it will take me seven years for my bachelor’s degree.

I would like to study in France, but I have minimal French skills, and all the courses will be in French. However, I have over a year to learn French (depending on when the semester starts in school I would be attending, which varies considerably), and I hope this will be enough to be able to comprehend engineering classes en français. I do not know if this is realistic, and I will also be talking to some advisors, but other input will be appreciated.

Now the thing is, I do not care too much personally about the fact that it will take me this long for an undergraduate degree, but I am mainly considered with how bad this would look on a résumé (BSc 2002 - 2009) and how this may hurt me in the future. I also know electrical engineering is a much more versatile degree (and a minor in computer engineering will help). My father tells me that I shouldn’t pick a degree merely because it has the broadest applications, but instead pick something I want and be good at it. I agree with him but for two facts regarding my situation: I do not know what I want (hence the versatility), and I also think I am more interested in EE than CE.

I also know that EE and CE are very similar, but looking over the courses and various job postings, it seems that going CE closes a lot of doors, but at the same time it does not offer a more defined path. I always hear that your undergraduate degree doesn’t matter, but it seems that when someone says they’re an EE, you have some idea of what they do, but if someone says they are a computer engineer, you have no idea if that means they repair computers or do ASIC design because the term is thrown around much more liberally – i.e., “oh, so you do something with computers.”

So what’s your, perhaps not-so, humble opinion?

Cliff notes version:
I’m a 3rd year computer engineering student in a 5 year co-op program. I failed a semester, making it a six year degree. I want to transfer into electrical engineering, minor in computer engineering, and do a semester in France. This will make it a seven year degree. I know minimal French.

2

If your parents are paying for all of this and are cool with it, go for it. But if you are taking out loans, for god’s sake don’t do it. What would you think of someone who went to France for a year to bum around and put it all on their credit cards? Student loans are a little better than that, but not much. The years right after college can be financially hard, even with a good degree, and you really don’t want to be stuck with $300 a month loan payments for the next fifteen years. That will really seriously limit your options in life.

So in any case, I suggest getting school done with ASAP. That one extra year would get you halfway to a Master’s degree. And with each passing month you run the risk that something will happen (illness, parent’s ill, nuclear war, whatever) and you will end up never getting that degree- wasting literally tens of thousands of dollars. I’ve known a LOT of people (all coincidentally computer degree people) who have gone this route and never graduated. Nothing sucks more than paying off a degree you never got.

Finally, at some point (and the 3rd year is a good time) you just gotta choose something and stick with it, even if it isn’t the absolute best thing in the world for you. In the world of computer employment, a degree will get you in the door but work experience plays a much bigger role in exactly what jobs you get.

And unfourtunately age is a factor- computer firms like to hire you people. And there is no promise you will get a computer-related job (or a job more glamorous than tech support- which most of my computer degree friends are working) for a while. If you asked my friends if it mattered what permutation of a computer degree you should get they’d laugh at you, because you can answer the phones all the same with any one of them. It’s a tough world, and it’s tougher with debt.

3

As an aside if you were havng difficulty with CE my understanding is that EE is considerably more math intensive. If you struggle with math EE may not be the path for you.

4

I neglected to mention that I’m in Canada, where tuition is significantly less expensive than in the US. I wouldn’t go to France for an entire year, and certainly not to bum around. I would most likely leave a month before the semester starts to work on my French, and otherwise be working in Canada. I have and will be earning enough money to make this possible. I hope to get a work term in Montreal before I go to France, if I were to actually go through with it. (Yes, I know Montreal is a horrible place to learn French, but it’s the best opportunity I would have.)

I’m not sure what you mean by this because it’s not like I’m planning on switching to computer science (and even then, my school’s CS program is excellent). However, your point regarding tech support is that to which I was alluding – i.e., that computer science/eng degrees typically get less respect than an EE degree, even though they are both equally intensive programs. That is one reason I want to switch. However, even if I were to stay in computer engineering, I’m more worried about being stuck as a code monkey than a tech support monkey.

Also, I know EE is more math intensive and frankly it’s one reason I’d rather switch. I’d rather learn about more general theory regarding transmission lines and power generation than narrow stuff about bus arbitration and CPU scheduling. The difference between the CE and EE core curriculum here is five courses, four of which are very popular electives for both programs. Most of the 4th year electives are shared between the two programs as well (although it naturally depends on the previous electives). This is ironic considering how these degrees are perceived differently.

5

So, because of the co-op option you are more or less continously working and not accruing debt? If that’s the case, your resume will not show that it took seven years to get a bachlors degree, it will show that you have work experience and that you graduated on such and such a date. You don’t have to put the year you STARTED, after all.

Do you enjoy schoool/the process? If you do, keep at it. If this is really just about putting off graduation because you don’t know what happens then (and I say this only because I’ve known more than one case of delaying graduation because of fear), then work that problem out. If you are working a proffessional job through the co-op program, that oughta be able to help you.

6

I’m saying I know people with EE degrees who run forklifts at warehouses. I know people with CE degrees from prestigous universities can only dream of being code-monkies. Then again, I know people with lit degrees who are making tons of cash working on computers. I promise your first job is very very unlikely to be one of those jobs you are looking at on the job boards. It’s different for every person and god know what the economy will be like, but get used to the idea that your goals for your first job may not be “rewarding, relevent, room for advancement” but may be “does not involve a deep fryer.”

You really can’t be too sure of much in this world and it’s easy to plan your glorious future from the confines of a classroom, but it doesn’t often work out that way in real life. I wouldn’t advice people to make too many major deciscions based on fairly minor preferences in their imagined future work places. You just can’t be sure enough of anything for that to be meaningful. I’m not trying to put you down here or harsh your buzz here, but do check out the “quarterlife crisis” thread in the pit. I wish someone had told me some of this stuff before I graduated because when life smacks you with that clue-by-four it hurts a lot worse.

If you do do this, make sure you can get a work permit in France- they can be pretty finicky about what you can do with student visas and youth unemployment is insanely high in France as-is.

7

fresth pretzels,
I don’t think people really care how long it took for you to finish a degree. You can always say that you were supporting yourself and had to stretch out your course work. I do think that you’re someone who really don’t know what he wants to do for a career. To contemplate going off to study a difficult subject in a foreign country without knowing the language does not impress me as a sound decision. I would suggest you do more research about what a future in computer or electrical engineering would be like. Frankly, if I were you, I’d finish up the undergrad degree ASAP and maybe venture off to a related field like EE in grad school, but after working a few years.

8

After typing up these replies, I see again how unnecessarily long they are. I guess my replies are probably more for me than anyone else here. Again, the meat of the post is at the bottom.

even sven

Since you seem to be making assumptions about me, I’ll just make the assumption that you do not know what a co-op program is. It means that while not studying, you do work in a relevant field. No, this does not mean we take a career class and look at monster.com all day. My last co-op job was being a code monkey and so is my current one, and I have realized that this is not something I want to get stuck doing. This is why I have drawn up a new academic path that will hopefully help me find a more suitable career path. You say that I should be prepared for whatever the economy holds in store, which is exactly one of the main factors behind my desire to switch majors.

And I am not planning to work in France (I said I hope to work in Montreal), as I am already aware of the youth unemployment and various riots, and the further complications that being a foreign student without French fluency would undoubtedly cause in finding work.

I am hardly an expert on any of the topics in this thread and that is why I seek more information, and even though you are probably just trying to prepare me for “the real world,” I am not the painfully sheltered student for which you seem to take me. Your thoughts are welcome, however.

nivlac

You are correct in observing the fact that I do not know exactly what I want; I imagine few people my age truly do. All I do know is that I would prefer something to do with electricity, which is still the same goal I had in high school. At the time, I thought computer engineering would give me the best background to get a career in designing electronics since that is what computer engineers do – digital design. I have since found out the importance of analog elements in everything related to electronics, and how computer engineering is just an abstraction between EE and CS. In the job market though, CE may as well be CS. Is that an accurate assumption?

Now I know it seems I am placing a lot of weight on my unimportant undergraduate degree, but when you add in the general perception of EE vs CE, how EE interests me more, and the value in knowing another language (and being able to absorb technical concepts in said language) and culture in today’s world, it makes me more inclined to attempt such a path. (Holy run-on.) However, if it really is a crippling choice to make, I won’t do it.

Also, I’m not completely ignortant on the French language. I had four years of basic classes in junior high, one intro course in university, have been working on the Pimsleur audiobooks, and I have over a year to work on it, but I’m not sure of my ability to absorb technical concepts by the time I would study abroad. Hence, I would like other opinions first, particularly by people who have done it before. I do submit, however, that this may be completely unrealistic.
I realize now that my original post may seem to be lacking direction and rather open-ended, so I’ll be a little more specific:

  • What are your thoughts on taking such an extended amount of time for an undergraduate degree? Can I really leave out the starting date of my university education? Recruiter/HR input would really be appreciated.
  • Have you studied abroad in a foreign language? How much of the language did you know before hand? What are your general thoughts on the subject?
  • What are your thoughts on EE vs CE?
9

Yes, you really can. Nearly all of the resumes that cross my desk only have the year that the degree was granted. Ye Olde University, BSc, 2009

When interviewing people for their first jobs out of college, naturally a bit of the conversation is about school, because candidates have relatively little on the job experience. A detail-oriented interview might ask you specifically about your college time frame, which would be a good opportunity for you to put a positive spin on the co-op program and how it gave you actual experience in the field.

As for study abroad, what kind of program is it? Is it something offered through your school, where the whole mechanism for applying and transfer of credits is already set up? Or is it the kind of thing where you have to identify a program in France and then make all the arrangements yourself?

The benefit of the first kind is that your school will have resources in place to assist you with issues that might arise, and it is easy to find students who have already been through the program and can give you their insights. The second scenario is more hassle-filled, but has the benefit that you can find exactly what you are looking for. Either way, the key is to talk to other students who have been in the exact same program you are going to do. While general information about studying in France is helpful, you really need specific information about the experience of other students who took the same classes at the same institution in France.

I work at a college, and have HR responsibilities, if you are keeping track.

10

There’s an exchange office that’s supposed to help me pick from among eight universities in France (Lyon, Grenoble, Compiègne, Toulouse, Paris, and Metz). Then there’s an exchange coordinator for my program to help find equivalent courses once I find out where I’ll be going.

I hope that the exchange office can put me in touch with some other engineering students who did the same thing. They have various comments from students who have done it in the past, but what they publish is fairly glowing so I am not sure how accurate it is.

I have found out that this is a possible option for me, but with the feedback I’ve been getting lately (not just from this board), I’m thinking I might just get my undergrad done with. The way I see it though is that it will take an extra year to get the degree I want and have the opportunity to try something completely different. In the long run it seems worth it, but in the short-term apparently it doesn’t.

Of course these are decisions that only I can make, but further input, opinions, and anecdotes regarding my questions would be nice.

11

Honestly, I can’t imagine being in school for seven years and only coming out with a bachelors. Co-oping during school is great, but man, at some point you have to get out of school and into the real world. If you went to a more traditional school 7 years, even with the failed semester, would net you a masters degree even with a study abroad year. If I were you I would transfer into a more traditional school and graduate in two years, just working the summers.

Co-op programs are great becuase they give you a leg up on the competition becuase you have work experience. But 7 years of Co-op experience isn’t worth it. I see that you have at least two co-op experiences, picking up one this summer and one next summer is more than sufficient.

12

fresh I will tell you this … from the day I graduated high school until the day I got my batchelor’s degree in Civil Engineering was a full ten years.

Somehow in the mean time I hitchhiked to Californina … beat a drug addiction … came home and had two kids … left an abusive situation … uh… don’t ask :wink:

I’ve never had anyone ask me about the gap in time. Please, do what you feel is right for you.

Today (twenty years later) I pull six figures and own my own company. You can do it. :slight_smile:

13

I think it is worth it. If your finances allow it, go for it. You’re not likely to have the opportunity to spend as much time in a foreign country after college. If that’s something you want to do, and it won’t set you back much other than a year, do it! Once you’re out in the “real world” after college, you get weighed down with many more responsibilities - job, home, bills, maybe family, etc. which can keep you from trying different things. This is just IMHO, but take advantage of as many opportunities as you can during college to try new things or to experience different things. You’ll be really glad you did later. And when you’re 40, it’s not going to matter whether you graduated at 24 or 25 or whatever. That one extra year doesn’t mean much in the long run, and it does mean a lot right now - it means trying something new, experiencing new things, and getting to go places and do things you otherwise wouldn’t.

I’ve just been through the job search process, and I only had my college, degree, and graduation year on my resume. No one asked how long my degrees took. That’s really not a big deal. Yes, your jobs should have start and end dates on your resume, but your education doesn’t need to.

14

Many years ago I read a letter to “Dear Abby” (or “Ann Landers,” I don’t recall anymore), where the writer was agonizing over whether or not he should pursue a medical degree. He’d always wanted to be a doctor, but didn’t think he could, so never tried. He was in his thirties and lamented the fact that after X number of years of undergrad study, Y number of years of medical school, Z+Q years of residency and internship, he would be something like 43 years old by the time he was actually a full-fledged doctor ready to practice on his own. Her response was pretty simple; she merely asked him how old he’d be in that number of years if he didn’t pursue his life-long dream.

Bottom line: follow your heart. Quit sweating the details and worrying about how long it will take and just do what you think will bring you a lifetime of happiness, not just in your chosen career, but in looking back at your youth with no (or few) regrets. You’ll never be sorry you took the extra time to do what you really want to do – trust me on that one.

Best of luck!

15

Co-op isn’t just about making it easier to get a job after graduation. It’s about trying new things and seeing if something is really for you, this is something I’ve just remembered after a recent lengthy talk with my manager.

I don’t see why I would possibly want to transfer to a non-co-op program, lose some credits, and hopefully graduate in two years when I could stay at my university and graduate in exactly two years. I think there’s some confusion here regarding co-op. But I digress, transferring to another university was never an issue.

I’ve found out that it’s possible to do all the things I wanted, and everyone I’ve talked to is telling me to do it. At this point I’m leaning heavily towards it and the next step is to pick a university. I guess I’ll leave that for another thread.

16

Just another note. Over the last few months when I have been seriously considering it, I have realized that it really doesn’t matter how long it takes your degree as long as it’s something you want. I know various people 35+ years old who tell me that they hate their jobs and wish they could go back to school. They laugh when I tell them that I’m 21 and don’t want to switch because it means I’ll graduate when I’m 24 instead of 23.

Well, the truth is that I don’t know exactly what I want in a career, but I have a better understanding now of what options I want available to me (or more accurately, what I don’t want to be stuck doing), my interests, and what I want from my university education.

17

I’m no engineer but maybe I can speak to the language question:

I took 9 weeks of intensive French (5 in the USA, 4 in France), then moved to Paris and spent a year attending lectures and seminars in medieval philosophy. It was easier than I thought it would be. If I were you, I wouldn’t let the language barrier stop you.

18

I’m 38, am beginning to look around for a new career, and can no longer remember the difference between 24 and 23. Don’t let the extra year stop you, either.

19

How much French knowledge did you have before starting, and was the school you were attending “friendly” to FSL students?

I heard from my exchange office today that most of the partner universities have a large portion of exchange students from all over, and their classes tend to take this into account.