Yes, you could do that. No doubt Chiros get some goofball courses. But I’m afraid if you are going to assume they are also uneducated in matters of the human body so you can feel better hating on them, you’re lying to yourself.
This is just my personal experience…
I was always terrified of chiropractors, I felt like I would walk in, they would pop something and I wouldn’t be able to feel my feet afterwards. I had nothing to back my theory up, but it was how I felt. My wife on the other hand goes to one religiously.
I started having some upper back pain and arm and hand numbness a few years ago. It just seemed to show up one morning, there was no fall or other injury to attribute it to. I went to my MD, who I have used for years and trust implicitly. He decided it was muscular, prescribed some pain killers and muscle relaxers. The pills took the edge off, but I could tell it was still there. It didn’t take too much time and the pain worsened. I kept going to my MD and he started testing for other things, Xrays, Cat Scans etc. The pain kept growing.
I finally relented and went to my wife’s chiropractor. I was upfront with her and told her my concerns etc. She took X-rays and started working on me. Her treatments seemed to help some, but I was still in a lot of pain. I communicated all of this to my MD and the Chiropractor and told them about each other as well.
They finally had a conference call about me and worked together on my treatment. Most of my pain was between my shoulder blades and down my right arm. All of the scans my MD and Chiropractor were doing were of that area. My Chiropractor finally took an X-ray of my neck and discovered two bulging discs, called my MD and shared the X-ray with him. Then my insurance got involved and said the Chiropractors X-rays were not valid, I have no idea why, but they did. So my doctor had to take more X-rays to validate a Cat Scan of my neck, which in turn validated an MRI of my neck, which confirmed the bulging disc beyond a doubt. All of that got me a referral to a Neurosurgeon, who operated on my neck. When I woke up, the original pain and numbness was gone. When we figured out that is was the bulging disc causing the problem, the Chiropractor actually told me to stop coming to her. Both MD’s credit the Chiropractor for finding the issue and seemed quite impressed with her.
I was also impressed. Not only that she discovered the issue with a simple X-ray and deduction, but the fact that she told me to stop coming in. I still visit the office and say hi when I am in the area, (small town) and will always recommend her to people looking for a Chiropractor.
I will admit that I do miss the TENS machine that they would put on me that contracted the muscles via electrodes. It was better than any massage I have ever received.
I’m not saying he is… and I’m not saying he isn’t.
I’m just asking if he looked like this guy…?
A chiropractor’s office is also where I discovered TENS units. You can buy them on Amazon fairly inexpensively. I’m a fan.
For what it’s worth, I agree with those who say that chiropractors who understand their limitations and are not looking to dodge working in concert with a patient’s doctors can be very useful, in my opinion. But I understand the skepticism that most folks have about them.
And most on-topic, I reiterate that I think THIS chiropractor (the one referenced in the OP) is problematic whether or not one believes there is such thing as a “legitimate” chiropractor.
So I decided to look up my local Chiropractic school.
Northwestern Health Sciences University.
Sounds like a place with a reputable name at least.
“Northwestern Health Sciences University is a top **alternative medicine **school in Bloomington, MN”. (Bolding mine, enter Tim Minchin quote)
This “school” also offers :
And then I found a review of the college:
:dubious:
Physiotherapists do acupuncture, stpauler.
While they don’t generally believe “cupping” pulls bad chi out of the body, some use a somewhat similar system of suction cups for pain relief.
Your cite says:
:eek: Did I just prove physiotherapists are uneducated? ? Oops!
I am not defending Chiropractic care. I am pointing out that you critics in this thread are simply wrong that they don’t recieve a thorough education, even if a few woo classes come included.
When you have to take the position that criticism is “hating on”, in my experience there’s a chance you’re using some very motivated reasoning. Chiropractic is not a science-based medicine, which bascially means it’s not medicine as we define it in modern society. They don’t run rigorous trials to determine effective treatments nor is their fundamental model of physiology based on reality.
Since we have actual medical professionals that can do the same job as they can (physical therapists, orthopedists, sports medicine specialists, etc) their job is not only superfluous but dangerous.
Well your experience has led you astray. I’ve worked with physiotherapists for over a decade and as I mentioned my father was a physician. I have no motivation other than fighting ignorance.
But no one in this thread has displayed “hating on” behavior. We’ve accurately described chiropractic as being based on pre-scientific principles of vitalism, of not having science-based practices, of being dangerous, of being superfluous with actual medical professionals who can serve the same roles. For you to describe this as “hating on” indicates that you have a bias towards chiropractic and want to discredit the people who are offering legitimate criticisms. There is no ignorance you’ve fought here.
No, I was responding to the idea that they lack any meaningful reality based education. That ignorance is definitely being displayed, with plenty of “dubious” smilies included.
Dubious smiles?
Indeed.
According to the syllabi I’ve seen, this is true.
On the other hand their clinical training dumbs them down, directing them to ignore much of the basic science information they were earlier given. By the time they’re in practice, many if not most are deluded into thinking that chiropractic adjustments can reverse “birth injury” and treat asthma, cardiovascular disease and other internal medical complaints. They’re encouraged to steer patients away from evidence-based care and use a bewildering variety of expensive but useless gadgets to relieve those patients of excess cash.
You can have a fine foundation in basic sciences, but it’s pretty much a waste when you erect a rickety tower of Chiro Babble on top of it.
:dubious:
OP, I think chiropractic is generally quackery, but some people think it helps a few things, and there are some chiropractors who at least have some humility. That said, I think this guy is full of bad advice and you know it.
^ This, CarnalK, was my point. Perhaps I made it too subtly. I never said that chiros were not educated or even that they do not go to school as long as other medical professions. They do not, however, generally study subjects like “evidence based practice” which helps turn all that book knowledge into effective treatment methodologies. PT’s do not claim to heal disease. Chiro’s do. That is the difference.
Just FYI, in case anyone is interested in the topic, a complete copy of the book “At Your Own Risk: The Case Against Chiropractic” by Ralph Lee Smith is available to read online at: http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/AYOR/00c.html
It’s a pretty quick read, is full of useful information, and it’s a good summation of everything we knew was wrong with chiropractic even way back in 1969 (basically all the same stuff we know today).
.
I’ve been to PT with 3 different therapists at the same place. One concentrated on working on improving my range of motion in my arm by grasping me firmly at different points and doing 5 motions in the same direction, stronger each time, until i’m about to scream out in pain. That PT left the practice and the next PT just had me do unsupervised (after the first time) exercises on various pieces of equipment. Then that PT also left the practice and the third one alternated concentrated pressure on some body points on / near my arm, alternating with hot compresses.
From that, I gather that there isn’t much of a “system”, if each PT can approach the same case file and decide on 3 different courses of treatment. About all they agreed on was that progress should be measured by a protractor-like angle instrument.
The PT place I was going to (a large, well-known facility) seemed to be an “assembly line” operation - in and out in minimal time (15 minutes), minimal interaction with the patient.
In contrast, the Chiropractor a friend suggested I see spent over 2 hours on the initial consultation and was more interested in the difference between my good arm and the bad one. Each treatment was around an hour long and involved (among other things) the “magic rollers massage table” which massaged my back from my waist to my neck. This was quite invigorating and left me feeling better. Next was a discussion of how I was doing, along with gentle motion (I’ll call it “motion” instead of “manipulation” to indicate it was exploratory rather than corrective) to see how well I could move my arm during this visit. Based on the results, he would either use ultrasound massage, hand massage, and/or suggest home exercises to do between visits. He also had the tilt table with the clicky thing and a lot of dietary supplements for sale up at the front desk, but he never pushed either of those on me.
After a few visits, he suggested I see a doctor at a nearby medical school, who had literally “written the book” on this type of issue. I was diagnosed there with “frozen shoulder” and scheduled for a subsequent procedure which pretty much eliminated my symptoms after the first treatment.
So in my experience with these 3 offices, I’d rate the PTs the highest “woo factor”. Obviously individual experiences will vary, both due to the patient and professionals involved.
I just read the Wikipedia entry for * Wilk v. American Medical Association* 895 F.2d 352 (7th Cir. 1990). Whadduya know. Maybe you people who have posted ought to find those people and beat some sense into them.