Is this joke racist? If so, why?
I got it from this site, though I don’t like this particular phrasing of it… Feel free to substitute “Native American” for “Indian” if you wish. I’m interested in the content, rather than the wording.
I could do without it.
To me it implies that an Indian will stab you in the back…
I’ve heard that joke before, with different phrasing (culminating in “what do you mean, “we,” white man?”)
See, I’m not an American Indian, but I don’t find it too offensive. I think in the context of the Lone Ranger and Tonto, it’s funny, since Tonto was the Lone Ranger’s sidekick, and…gee, I feel kinda silly explaining it.
I think it’s playing off of the plotline of The Lone Ranger more than perceived stereotypes about American Indians.
IMHO, and IANANA (I am not a Native American), but to say it to an “Indian” would be like criticizing the NAACP for any niggardly habits they might have.
OTOH, the joke could be construed as “pro-Indian” if you see it in the context that Tonto is standing up against the 'Rangers shot-calling and assumptions. YMMV, for sure.
-Joe (practicing for attaining the record for Most Abbreviations In A Single Post)
I disagree, it implies that a particular Indian, Tonto, will stab you in the back. By impling that just because one Indian will stab you in the back why do you make the jump that all Indians will.
Tonto and the Lone Ranger had a long running series where I assume (I never saw more then fractions of episodes) you could get a good feel for what kind of person Tonto was.
Also I must add that this situation looks grim, either way the Lone Ranger is doomed, Tonto has a way out and uses it.
Althought perhaps Tonto could try to reason with the other Indians, being one himself and maybe get them both off.
Actually it does show some racism on the part of the Indians or at least Tonto’s perception on how Indians think (to think he could get off just because he was Indian).
So I guess it does show some racism (now if it’s good, neutral or bad racism in this situation is another subject altogether - see GD racism topic for more details).
So how 'bout this one
A Cowboy, Indian (N.A.) and a Muslem are at the airport waiting for a flight. They strike up a conversation and all is going well till they find out the Muslem is a Muslem. Then things quite down.
After a while the Indian says ’ Once my people were very many, now we are very few’, The muslem says ‘Once my people were very few and now we are very many, why do you think that is’ The cowboy then mumbles under his breath ’ that’s because we havn’t played cowboys and muslems yet.’
It all comes down to what does racism mean. If it means discriminating against someone do to skin color (aka race) then both are racist - but this is not a bad thing in and of itself (i.e. you might not select a different race then you for a mate). If it means you are putting yourself in a superior role using race as a factor then this is a form of negitive racism and generally accepted as morally wrong.
Forgot to add
Just my humble O.
It’s a joke because Tonto’s unexpectedly stabbing the Lone Ranger in the back.
If the joke was about a generic cowboy and Indian it wouldn’t work.
So no, it’s not racist.
You could also have replaced The Lone Ranger, Tonto, and the attacking Native Americans with Batman, Robin, and every villian in Gotham City and the joke would have just as many. That is, not very.
Well, not really; the point of the joke is in the stereotype of the white man fighting against the Native Americans, and we’re so used to thinking of Tonto as the Lone Ranger’s sidekick that in the beginning of the joke we instinctively see it as “Lone Ranger and Tonto vs. the Native Americans.” Suddenly when it looks hopeless we’re reminded that Tonto IS a Native American and has an easy out. You couldn’t switch it to Batman, Robin, and the Gotham City villains unless Robin actually WAS a Gotham City villain.
It would work with the Klingon who’s on the Enterprise crew from the new Star Trek show. I think his name was Wharf or Whorf? (I’m not much of a fan, obviously.)
I found the joke funny the first time I heard it (about 20 years ago) and I still think it’s pretty funny. I personally don’t hear any generalization at all about Native Americans in it; it’s the surprise of the punchline that gets you, and if anything I think it makes a point about people in general. I.e., people will desert you. Maybe I’m not sensitive enough to such things.
Actually, the punchline has become kind of a standard joke in my family: If someone says, “Oh man, we have to clean out the garage today,” someone else will say, “What do you mean ‘we,’ paleface?” No, we are not Native Americans; it’s just a way of saying, “I don’t feel like doing that, so don’t try to sneakily enlist me.” But it’s a good-natured thing; we laugh and everyone ends up cleaning out the garage anyway.
We do that, too, except we use “whiteman”. I had always assumed it to be a joke about the sidekick “changing sides”, and Tonto just made a good vehicle for the joke because that duo are so well known, and because he fits an “easily” identifiable “type”. But I can also see how it would be perceived as being anti-N.A., i.e. “those savages will stab you in the back”, which would be a pretty negative thing to say indeed. In our house, we never used it in that second sense. But our using it is what prompted me to ask. Thanks for the input, everybody!
Would you consider k2dave’s joke about the cowboy, the Native American, and the Muslim to be racist?
That’s the way I read it, as well.
I see k2dave’s joke as a comment on the Asshole-Cowboy Syndrome, personally, though I suspect it’s one of those post-9/11 jokes where we’re all supposed to go, “Damn right! Cowboys and Muslims time! U-S-A! U-S-A!” :rolleyes:
So yes, I’d say it’s got racism, or at least bigotry at heart, depending on whether Muslims are to be considered a race.
Disclaimer: No offense to k2dave. I hope that was clear, and I think he was presenting the joke as a subject of conversation, not an example of his own stance on Cowboys and Muslims.
no offense taken, I put it there for contrast, sort of simular in that there are sides (races), but different in that they are unknowns (the 3 characters).
Unlike the Lone Ranger and Tonto joke this one involves your own sterotyping of the 3 characters. As jackelope has put it the Asshole-Cowboy Syndrome. This particular joke kind of forces you into racist thinking while the Lone Ranger/ Tonto one does not.
Not racist.
The joke is a classic example of the minority group winning out over the majority group. The joke is also a recognition that in some situations, the majority becomes the minority.
There are jokes like that for most subcultures/ethnic minority groups, ("And the Irishman says, “Feck ya, keep the egg”.) in which the minority group individual wins out over the majority group individual.
Good OP for asking.
Whistlepig
Gosh, it never occured to me to take it that way. You mean that it could be a Native American joke making fun of whites, kind of like: “you buttered your bread, now eat it”? That would be great if it was–what a richly textured joke it would be in that case.
What’s the joke for the Irishman punchline “Feck ya, keep the egg”?
Two fellows are backpacking, hiking along when they see a bear charging them. One of them immediately drops his pack and starts putting on his running shoes. His buddy says, “What are you doing that for? There’s no way you can outrun that bear.”
The fellow says, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I only have to outrun you.”
Same basic concept as the “What do you mean we, paleface?” joke. The heart of it is the twist ending, the surprise when one indicates he’s going to save his hide while the other gets it. It’s not about Indians, or cowboys, or bears, or hikers. Those details are just variations to set up the story, make it relevant to some aspect of the listeners’ knowledge, give it some life and color.
There may be some valid reasons why American Indians find the “paleface” version tiresome or insensitive, and telling it could be considered racially thoughtless by some. But the joke itself is not racist, and is not trying to say anything positive or negative about American Indians.
I’m just watching Don’t Say A Word on video.
The relative merits of the film aside, one scene early on did remind me of this thread enough to bring me here during the intermission/turkey-sandwich-fixing period:
When Michael Douglas’ character is first brought in to try and help the girl, the fella that calls him in says “You and me are this girl’s only hope to avoid a lifetime of thorazine,” to which Douglas’ character replies “What’s all this ‘you and me’, kemosabe? I have a thanksgiving dinner to get to.”
This suggests to me that the writers at least considered the joke to be based on expectations of partnership vs. personal convenience, with race being irrelevant.
I agree. Not to say that the joke can’t have racist overtones-- but I imagine that’s up to the teller.
I didn’t find it racist. Think of it as a butler and his master being threatened by the local peasants. The master will assume his butler will naturally die with him, where the butler would simply walk over to the peasants’ side. The Lone Ranger was part of the ruling class, and Tonto was the part of the oppressed minority.
It’s similar to the joke where TLR gets bit on the ass by a snake. “You a dead man kimosabe’.”
The cowboy and muslims joke seems to have very strong racial undertones.