The book is fiction but the feelings portrayed in the book are quite real.
Should McMillan be villified for simply recreating a world exists?
Should she have created a book that was more “We Are the World”? Would it have been as popular? Would the characters be just as real?
If you don’t like the book, that’s 100% fine. I’ve read books that I cannot finish because of the racism expressed by the main characters (“Gone With the Wind” is one). But such books shouldn’t be shot down simply because they hurt your feelings. The purpose of fiction is to provide a glimpse into another world and another viewpoint. Sometimes those worlds and viewpoints do not include you.
You have to also understand the character’s feelings. The dynamics in the story would be totally different if the characters were white. A good man is hard to find for everyone, but it’s even harder for black women who are attracted to black men. It’s just a reality. You have to consider this fact when you heap judgement on the characters in the book. It explains much of the tension and resentment. Otherwise, you become distracted by trivial things.
“Waiting to Exhale” is not great literature. It’s junk food. It’s entertaining but not very deep. Don’t read too much into every word or phrase and you’ll enjoy it more.
I’m not shooting this book down because it hurts my feelings. I’m shooting it down because it condones racism
And sometimes they do. I’m white. My wife is white. I do not appreciate anyone referring to her as a “heffa” under any circumstances.
Whose reality? I’m very skeptical of the assertion that they can’t get dates, because intelligent, educated black males go after white women. When I hear this, it reminds me of the bad ol’ days listening to drunken louts in bars complain about how all N*****s sit around all day drinking Malt Liquor and collecting welfare checks. These guys will tell you that it’s “just the way it is.” I don’t believe them, and I don’t believe you.
Racism isn’t and never has been trivial.
“Read in”?? It doesn’t take a whole lot of “reading in” to get racist vibes from this. The fact that it isn’t supposed to be great literature doesn’t excuse its racism. What, should we excuse “Birth of a Nation” because it’s not great cinema?
It is, actually. She was referring to the perfume, and the passage struck me particularly when I read the book, simply because White Shoulders was the fragrance that I fell in love with kaylasmom to.
OK, OK, maybe that was a bad example. But don’t the critics still condemn the racist message, even as they praise the cinematography?
I guess it’s hard for me to come up with stuff that’s derogatory toward minorities and not considered great literature, because I don’t really read or see that kind of schizz . . .
Although Turner Diaries was pretty despicable while at the same time really trashy . . . but that’s hell and gone from the degree of racism we’re talking about here . . .
First off all, Linty Fresh, you need to calm down. This isn’t Mien Kampf we’re talking about. And I’m sorry, I refuse to get worked up about “white heiffer”. I’ve heard a lot worse in real life, let alone a book.
How does a fictional book condone anything? If it’s a nonfiction book and it’s instructing the readers to “Kill Whitey”, then yes, it’s condoning racism. If a book tells the story about racist characters living otherwise normal lives, then it’s simply telling a story about racist characters living otherwise normal lives. The readers are left to the judge the characters. The book isn’t telling them how they should feel about anything.
Obviously someone’s reality, because “Waiting to Exhale” is a top seller and it was popular enough to become a successful movie. And as a black woman who–gasp!–knows other black women, I’m comfortable saying that the feelings displayed in the book are quite real. It’s the feelings that are important, because that’s what the book is about.
But the fact is also, well, a fact. There aren’t a whole lot of black guys out where I live who are doing what I do. The fact is that there are significantly more professional black women than black males, and this gap broadens when we consider who’s single and who’s not gay. There are plenty of good black guys around, but the women in the book obviously aren’t looking for bus drivers or plumbers or somebody’s baby’s daddy. They are looking for someone of their professional caliber. Criticize them on that if you want, but please don’t lecture me on what I know to be true: a white woman doesn’t have to look that far and wide to find Mr. Right (treats me right, looks right, has the “right” job and the “right” family). A black woman looking for a black mate DOES. Period.
(No one would expect an upper-middle class white woman to “settle” for someone just because he’s nice. But for some reason, people expect Claire Huxtable to shack up with the fry guy at the local McDonald’s. And if Claire doesn’t want to, she’s a big meano. That’s what “Waiting to Exhale” is about. Folks not wanting to “settle”. It has squat to do with white people.)
Fine. Don’t believe me because you obviously think that your experience as a white man trumps mine as a black woman, even though we are discussing a book about black women, by a black woman. I obviously don’t have any insight to provide to this discussion.
I don’t like anyone–black or white–to be called heffa or bitch or cunt. These are terms that are derogatory to women. But I don’t see you moaning about sexism in this book. How 'bout that?
About worlds and viewpoints–why would you want to read books that only include you? Why wouldn’t you want to know “what the other side” feels? Black people constantly read books that show us from the white perspective. We read books with characters who call blacks “nigger”, “nigra”, “black so-and-so”. In fact, most of the books out there are from a white perspective, so whenever we open up a book we have to be prepared to see ourselves portrayed in a weird and distorted way. White people rarely get this treatment. No wonder you’re so upset.
I’m not trying to be condescending, but a mature reader at least tries to understand what’s going on in the character’s worlds before they call them “racist” and what-not. I don’t think you’ve done this at all, Linty Fresh. I hated Scarlett O’Hara because she was a spoiled, whiny, stupid brat of a person. The racism stung too, but I at least tried to realize she was a product of a society where those feelings were acceptable. And also, the racism wasn’t the main part of the story! Just like “Waiting to Exhale”.
Please don’t compare “Waiting to Exhale” to “Birth of a Nation”. It makes you look stupid.
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses, Dopers. Particularly Linty Fresh.
I realize, as Monstro pointed out, that this is
a.) not great literature, and
b.) perhaps not intended for me.
But I don’t really care, either way. If it’s okay to voice this type of sentiment, because it’s true to life, that would excuse just about any kind of racist garbage I could put to paper, wouldn’t it? If I were to write a book that takes for granted that black people are, say, welfare-loving crack addicts, would it be okay as long as I could find people who believed that? “Hey, c’mon, I’m just being real! Lots of people feel this way! My book wouldn’t be authentic unless it included thoughtless racism!”
And it’s not as if there are any redeeming moments in this book; it’s not as if there are other white people who are portrayed respectfully or fairly. The only time the word “white” is mentioned is when it’s derogatory. It’s not excused or redeemed, b/c there’s no apparent need. The world Ms. McMillan creates takes it totally for granted that this type of thought is acceptable and even desirable.
And as for why black women may feel this way, re: the shortage of Good Black Men For Black Women, etc., honestly that’s just more bullshit. If that is actually a problem, it’s not one I created and I dislike being held accountable for it because I’m white. That’s no different from me holding all black women accountable for the behavior of any one black woman I encounter. If I notice that I get cut off in traffic more frequently by black women, for instance, is it okay for me to develop hostility towards every black driver I see?
That’s a generalization, a copout, and the purist kind of racism. That’s the easy way out. It takes time to rationalize true equality, particularly in your own mind. It takes effort to stop and remind yourself that perhaps you’re just looking for what you’d like to see. It’s like when you’re shopping for a new car; you start looking at certain models and makes and suddenly they’re everywhere. You can’t believe it. You never noticed that car before, and now that you’re in the market for it you can’t drive down the street without passing it five times.
Same thing with racism. If you’re predisposed to believe the worst of another race, or sex, or nationality, you’re going to see justifications everywhere. You don’t notice all the other people doing the same thing, or all the positive examples. You’re not looking everywhere anymore. You’re not seeing the big picture. You’re just shopping around for what you’ve already got in mind.
I am calm, thank you. I’m not “worked up” about anything. I don’t need to go into hysterics to condemn something that I find offensive, so please don’t try to paint me as frothing at the mouth.
I don’t buy this. If a book mentions the words “nigra” or “darkey” or “whitey” or “ofey” once or twice, I’ll give it a pass. If one of the main premises of the book is that one race can’t find mates because of another race, I think it’s a different story.
So what? Al Jolson was pretty popular in his time, along with other minstrel shows. I seem to remember plenty of movies with stereotypical Mexicans, sporting sombreros, funny accents, and sticky fingers. That doesn’t make it OK.
Your race isn’t really a factor, as far as I’m concerned. By this logic, if I’m denied an opportunity for a job, this automatically qualifies me to condemn Affirmative Action without doing any research into the topic, simply because it touched on my life.
Also, I’m not arguing that the feelings aren’t real. I’m arguing that they aren’t right.
Jesus. That says it all, doesn’t it? So does this:
This is ignorant beyond belief. White women don’t have trouble finding Mr. Right? No one expects white women to settle? Who looks stupid now?
After reading the two quotes from before this statement, I’d have to concur.
Where in the name of Ned did I ever maintain that?
I know there are books like that, and I would be happy to condemn them. This thread is not about those books. This thread is about this book.
Oh, and once again, I’m not upset. (Is this what psychiatrists call “transference”?)
You know, come to think of it, I hated Scarlett, too. What’s your point?
Are you seriously trying to tell me that these feelings are acceptable in contemporary black society? Because I–along with all of my black friends–disagree with this sentiment strongly.
Why? I’m not saying that the racist characters in this book were as bad as the klan. I am saying that they make the same error. Just because one’s racism does not lead to violent acts does not make that racism any more justified. As has been noted a few times on this thread, already, racism is racism.
And whether you are talking about “nigra’s,” “Mehicans,” or “white women,” racism is wrong.
It is okay to voice this kind of sentiment, Audrey. That’s why this country is beautiful. I wouldn’t want to live somewhere where it wouldn’t be okay.
If the book were JUST about this, then it would be a horrible book. Was “Waiting to Exhale” just about mean white people? Or was there a storyline independent of white people?
I don’t know about you, but I like books that are based on reality sometimes. It may hurt your feelings to know that some black people can’t stand white people. You shouldn’t take this book as some grand generalization about black people. I for one don’t go around calling white women “white heffas”. But I know some people who do. “Waiting to Exhale” is their story.
The book shouldn’t have to do this, Audrey. Terry’s sole purpose as an author is to create a world of her choosing. She does not have to create a world where every reader feels loved and included. The story may not have any “good” white people, but there is a story there that is enjoyable. All four women eventually find satisfaction by the end of the story. That is the redeeming part.
Where would this “excusal” come from? You want Terry McMillan to insert a token white character who shakes her finger everytime the character thinks “white heffa”? You want an asteroid to fall on a character everytime she thinks “white heffa”? You want some grand epiphany to strike the characters so that they suddenly become enlightened human beings? These things aren’t realistic, and the story would not be the same. Sorry.
I have some questions:
Why do you think Good Black Men for Black Women is not true, or at least based in some truth?
Why do you think this book is about you?
Do you think the movie (if you’ve seen it) was as racist as the book? If so, why do you think it was so popular among both black and white audiences?
[hijack]
There was a lot of criticism heaped on Alice Walker for her book “A Color Purple”. The charge was that she had created a world where there were no positive men (coincidentally, the same thing has been said for “Waiting to Exhale”). So, the men were portrayed much more kindly in the movie version than they were in the book. I don’t think the initial criticism was fair. I can easily imagine a world where a poor, isolated, uneducated young girl is abused by the men in her life. Shit happens all the time.
Linty Fresh, as a white male myself, just calm down. Why is this so offensive? It’s just the attitudes of the characters in a freaking book. No one is saying racism is OK, but if I was going to write a book about some typical white folks in the South getting together and bitching about what’s going on, they’re probably going to be a bunch of casual racists and no one will likely correct them.
Read some Flannery O’Connor. I love her stories, and they are generally considered pretty darn good American literature. But her stories are filled with casual racism. I don’t know how she felt about blacks in real life, but I recognize that those characters are true to the settings they are in. No one feels the need to denounce O’Connor’s work for condoning racism or spreading racist propaganda and recognize her stories for what they are. Why can’t you do the same with Waiting to Exhale?
The only book I really got angry at for it’s racism was Robinson Crusoe. I almost didn’t finish it I was so disgusted.
So what if it is racism? Should we burn it? Is it so shocking that there is a book about black characters that reflects racism? I’m not even sure why this is worthy of a thread, much less one in the Pit complete with long, enraged posts.
If that type of sentiment is part of the character, and is necessary for the book in some way (to flesh out the character, advance the plot, etc) then there’s no problem at all.
The characters in the book believe it’s true, for whatever reason. I haven’t read the book, but it probably is done for a reason. Maybe as something to blame because they are unsuccessful. Maybe they white people are simply scapegoats. Regardless of the reason, it’s part of who the people are. There’s no promise when you pick up a book that a character will be right—a lot of times, they’re absolutely wrong. That’s just part of the deal. Notihng to get worked up over.
No. But we should condemn it. Isn’t that one of the reasons reading is so great? Because we can discuss the reading material afterwards, dissect the main points, and judge them for their merits? That’s one of the reasons I love reading.
It depends on what you mean by problem. Is my world going to end just because a fictional character talked trash about white women? Hey, I got through Dostoevski and Solzhenitsyn, and I think I’ll get through this.
Still, I believe that this book reflects on deeper problems in society today. Problems that are reflected when someone tries to assert that white women don’t have the same problems dating as black women, or white women aren’t expected to settle, or, for that matter, when anyone of any race takes a problem that’s not based on race and then uses it to try to scapegoat a particular race. Is it as serious as blaming drugs, crime and poverty on blacks? No. But it all comes from the same problem, and that problem has to be addressed.
And if you give me a good reason as to why these characters talk trash about other races, I’ll stop condemning it. I would treat it the same way I would treat a good reason that Raskolnikov hacked a defenseless old woman to death (Although, to be fair to D., he made it obvious that he did not sympathize with Raskolnikov).
The issue isn’t whether the book should have been put out in the first place. The issue is whether McMillan was correct in her views. Fiction resonates as deeply in society as nonfiction (Uncle Tom’s Cabin, anyone?). It should be treated as seriously as nonfiction, IMHO.
Who the hell said someone like Claire Huxtable should settle with a fry jockey? No one. But to say, “Oh, it’s the WHITE girl’s fault.” that’s just stupid.
Same as people telling you if you’re successful, you’re “acting white.”
I said nothing about making it illegal, which seems to be what you’re implying. Just because something’s legal doesn’t make it acceptable. “That’s just the way things are” is not, nor has it ever been, an acceptable answer. That just perpetuates.
No, not at all. In fact, I saw no reason for white people to enter the story at all, if they are only going to do so for antagonistic reasons. Again, if I wrote a book about white people in which the only black people in the story were vilified, I think black readers would rightly have a problem with it. And for me to shrug and say, “So sorry! This is our Real-Life Racism Club, and you aren’t invited anyway!” is not an answer. It’s a copout.
Sure, I imagine it’s based in some truth; good men of any color are hard to find. So are good women. This is an age-old problem. I see no reason for black women to assume that white girls everywhere are snapping up all the good black men that rightfully “belong to them.” If it’s a problem, take it up with the black men doing it. What does it have to do with white women? And who decided that black men belong to anyone other than themselves? I am not owed a man of any color, and neither is any other woman! Certainly if I see a girl with a man I’d like, it isn’t her problem that he didn’t pick me!
And if I did fall in love with a black man, I certainly wouldn’t walk away from something wonderful just b/c there’s some girl out there who might need him more, or match his skin color more than I do. That’s ridiculous. If I like tall, blonde, blue-eyed white guys, and I just can’t seem to find one who isn’t gay or married, why do I get to blame someone for that? Is it because other people want a guy like that, too, but I deserve first dibs? How is that even remotely rational?
That’s my point, Monstro. This book is about four 30-something black women struggling to get their lives together. So why all the racial slurs? What’s the point of that? Is that for added authenticity? If the book isn’t about me, then why is my race vilified? Again, a book about four white women in the exact same position should have very little (particularly negative)to say about black women…and if it did, I’d have issues with that, too. If a character in this fictitious white novel lost her husband to another woman, would it be okay for the woman’s color to be the final insult? When is that ever okay?
No, I haven’t seen the movie. I may rent it, however, and if I do, I’ll let you know what I think.
BTW, I’m not attacking you monstro, nor am I applying this to you. I haven’t read the book, so I don’t know about it, nor have I seen the movie.
It’s just that it gets on my nerves to hear “acting black/white.”
It doesn’t sound like the book is racist, per se, but more that the characters themselves had some preconceived notions that wouldn’t stand up in say, Great Debates, no?
