I’m somewhat leery of treading in these waters, but I’m going to stick my toes in, anyway. I want to try out a theory on you folks and see how you feel about it.
Suppose there were a distinction between prejudice and racism. Suppose further that part of the distinction has to do with institutional power. Any individual can (in fact) be prejudiced against one group/race/gender or another, but in order for there to be racism there has to be an institutional structure whereby members a group/race/gender can be actually and in fact subjected to oppression (whether physical, financial, sexual, emotional, mental, or other).
Would it be possible to condemn the prejudice against whites exhibited by the characters in Terry McMillan’s book without calling them racists? Because it strikes me (as a white woman, FWIW) as somehow distorting to suggest that the statements quoted in the OP, and the attitudes among black women that might lead them to give voice to such statements, are somehow equivalent to the racism embodied in the institutions of slavery, the Klan, and Jim Crow.
And while it makes sense to name, regret and attempt to correct or inform prejudice wherever it occurs, it does not make sense (to me) to require members of minority groups who have been historically and systematically oppressed under a set of institutions that purports to rest on a foundation of equality and justice for all to put on a happy face and pretend that they don’t know just exactly who their oppressors have been and are. And it doesn’t seem sensible (to me) to be surprised if they give voice to suspicion and bitterness and give way to prejudice about members of the oppressing group. That doesn’t make the prejudice right, or justify or sanctify it in any way. The prejudice is still lamentable and limiting and damaging. But it’s not the same as racism.
Yikes. I may have gotten carried away in that last paragraph. I hope that I haven’t ruffled feathers or seemed too strident. This is my first venture into anything on these boards that resembles a Debate.
OK, I’ve just concluded that you haven’t read the book. And if you have, you didn’t do a good job. The book WAS NOT about white women taking black men. It wasn’t even a main point. And the vitriol really wasn’t targetted at white people—despite the derogatory terms mentioned here. The vitriol was targetted at black males.
What stereotypes of white people were presented in “Waiting to Exhale”? There are probably no more than two or three white characters in the whole book.
The characters in minstrel shows et al. are exaggerated. They are based on damaging stereotypes.
The perceptions of the characters in “Waiting to Exhale” may be exaggerated, but perceptions usually are. As a reader, you can judge the characters all you want. But don’t lambast the author for presenting those perceptions. The author is just telling it like it is. She’s not making any commentary on the rightness or the wrongness of what she’s presenting to you…that’s your job.
The narration of the book does not denigrate white people at all, IIRC. The characters do this. So I ask you again, how is the book condoning racism?
(Not understanding your analogy at all, but whatever…)
WTF? If race isn’t a factor, why are we having this conversation? Why did you mention your race in the first place? Would you be so upset about this book if you were a Chinese woman? You would like to think you would be, but chances are you would not. Race is a factor. Don’t pretend that it isn’t.
The book is about feelings. Rightly or wrongly, the feelings are presented to you. Judge all you want about the morality; that’s what you’re supposed to do. But don’t sit there and pretend that if the feelings don’t jibe with your own, the book is bad. The book ain’t supposed to make you feel warm and cuddly inside. We leave the “warm and cuddly inside” stage when we stop reading books with illustrations.
But if the fact is real–a “good” black man is hard to find–then the feelings aren’t bullshit. You may wish that black women like the ones in the book would stop being so picky and get with the interracial lovin’, but this doesn’t change the fact that their loneliness IS a big time reality. Calling it bullshit illustrates ignorance on the subject.
You posted this:
In response to this:
By worlds and viewpoints not including you, I meant worlds and viewpoints that do not consider your feelings. As a minority and a woman, I can’t come across a book that does not have passages that I don’t find offensive. Sometimes these words come from characters. Other times, they come from the “objective” author’s voice (the narrator).
When you responded with “And sometimes they do. I’m a white male”…, I automatically (and wrongly) assumed you meant that you do not read books from “other worlds and viewpoints that do not include you”. Why? Because most of the books I’ve read are from white perspective (and dare I say, white male). Most writers of English are white. Most times, it’s racial minorities who are distorted in literature, not white people. So why aren’t you the littlest bit interested in seeing how other people distort your “kind”?
“Waiting to Exhale” allows you to experience being the “other” while still trying to get the main point of the story. If you are unable to enjoy the story because the characters are racist, then you are no different than the millions of black people who hate “Gone With The Wind” or “Song of the South” or “Dumbo” or any other film or book that makes black people cringe collectively. But that doesn’t make “Waiting to Exhale” any less of a story than, say, “Gone With the Wind”.
What good is condemning books, Linty Fresh? When I think of condemnation, I think of bans. I think of burnings. I think of censorship. So…if you had the power to do whatever you want, how would you demonstrate your condemnation of “Waiting to Exhale”? And are you going to do the same thing to all the other books out there that offends the sensibilities of people?
I don’t know what “transference” means but I’m not upset either, if that’s what you are implying.
But since I hate it when people attribute emotions to me that I’m not feeling, I sincerely apologize.
I’m still waiting for you to condemn the use of “bitch”, “cunt”, “whore”, and “heffa”. Is racism worse than sexism? Why or why not?
Well, there’s already a term for this state of affairs: racial oppression. And you’re right; it would be ridiculous for a white person to claim that black people had been oppressing him throughout history.
If racism=racial oppression, then this would be correct. And, once again, I don’t put the name-calling of the characters in the same league as the klan, segregation, or slavery. My problem with it is that it stems from the same problem, racism, which is not equal to racial oppression. Both situations have the potential to become very ugly very quickly.
No. It was a great post, as far as I’m concerned. You brought up good points.
The characters called black males “white heffas”?!
I’d also call the perceptions of black females slinging around racial slurs as “exaggerated, damaging stereotypes,” but hey, that’s me . . . and a whole lot of black people, as well.
You mean like the drunks in the bar? Once again, I don’t believe them, and I don’t believe you.
It’s a job, I’m doing. And I think it’s fair to ask how far she sympathizes with the characters. Does she want her readers to feel this way? Or does she condemn the characters for these stereotypes?
I’m not pretending. It’s not a factor. You don’t have to be a particular race to have feelings about racism towards that particular race. I mentioned The Turner Diaries and Birth of a Nation, didn’t I? I hate them even though I’m white. If I were a Chinese woman, I’d still be put off by slurs against white people.
That’s the second time you’ve attributed something to me that I never said or maintained. I was judging the morality. Though I care about the feelings, they’re not all that important when compared to the actions.
Well, so much for:
Once again, I think your ignorance is showing here, not mine.
I’ve got news for you. Quite a few of us white people cringe right along with you when watching “Song of the South” and “Gone with the Wind” (Although not “Dumbo.” I haven’t seen that one in decades, but I don’t remember any real stereotyping. Not like “SOAS”, anyway. Oh well, I could be wrong on that. But I digress . . .)
:rolleyes:
I do have the power. I am demonstrating my condemnation of “Waiting to Exhale.” Condemnation does not equal censorship. At all.
Insofar as all the other books offend my sensibilities, and I happen to be on a message board when the topic comes up, and I happen to be in the mood, I will debate the books I have the time and inclination for.
Ummm, OK. I condemn them. Happy? I can’t honestly say which is worse. This thread is about racism, not sexism. Why would I comment about sexism in a thread about racism? How does sexism’s being bad affect racism’s badness in any way?
The characters called black males “white heffas”?!
I’d also call the perceptions of black females slinging around racial slurs as “exaggerated, damaging stereotypes,” but hey, that’s me . . . and a whole lot of black people, as well.
You mean like the drunks in the bar? Once again, I don’t believe them, and I don’t believe you.
It’s a job, I’m doing. And I think it’s fair to ask how far she sympathizes with the characters. Does she want her readers to feel this way? Or does she condemn the characters for these stereotypes?
I’m not pretending. It’s not a factor. You don’t have to be a particular race to have feelings about racism towards that particular race. I mentioned The Turner Diaries and Birth of a Nation, didn’t I? I hate them even though I’m white. If I were a Chinese woman, I’d still be put off by slurs against white people.
That’s the second time you’ve attributed something to me that I never said or maintained. I was judging the morality. Though I care about the feelings, they’re not all that important when compared to the actions.
Well, so much for:
Once again, I think your ignorance is showing here, not mine.
I’ve got news for you. Quite a few of us white people cringe right along with you when watching “Song of the South” and “Gone with the Wind” (Although not “Dumbo.” I haven’t seen that one in decades, but I don’t remember any real stereotyping. Not like “SOAS”, anyway. Oh well, I could be wrong on that. But I digress . . .)
:rolleyes:
I do have the power. I am demonstrating my condemnation of “Waiting to Exhale.” Condemnation does not equal censorship. At all.
Insofar as all the other books offend my sensibilities, and I happen to be on a message board when the topic comes up, and I happen to be in the mood, I will debate the books I have the time and inclination for.
Ummm, OK. I condemn them. Happy? I can’t honestly say which is worse. This thread is about racism, not sexism. Why would I comment about sexism in a thread about racism? How does sexism’s being bad affect racism’s badness in any way?
**1. Why do you think Good Black Men for Black Women is not true, or at least based in some truth? **
Audrey didn’t say this. She mentioned that the shortage of good black men for black woman was bullshit. Unless I misread that post, in which case, Audrey, please accept my apologies.
I guess maybe that’s where I disagree. I don’t see exactly how prejudice such as that expressed in the sentiments quoted in the OP has the potential to become “very ugly” if the prejudiced person is not in a position of power over the members of the group/race/gender about which the person is prejudiced.
More specifically, if a black man and I were to fall in love and wish to marry, do you think the prejudice of black people against whites would affect us the same way that the prejudice of white people against blacks would? As vehemently and vocally as individual black women may decry our union, even should that include his mother calling me a “white heffa,” I would be far more wary of the sneaky and subtle but all-too-real institutional racism that could affect us on account of his skin color.
This is not to say that his mother’s attitudes statements would not be very hurtful to him and to me. I suppose you could reasonably call this situation “very ugly.” But still, I would argue that his mother has no more power over us than that which we give her. Whereas, our employers, our landlords, our professors, our neighborhood police officers, all have very real power over our welfare, and are still far more likely to be white than otherwise. If we encounter prejudice there and it affects hiring or promotion decisions, whether or not we get a home loan or an apartment lease, whether we’re searched during a routine traffc stop, then this is a whole different order of magnitude and rises, I would argue, to the level of racism. I suppose this is because I am unwilling to accept your “racism does not equal racial oppression” assertion. That’s okay – we have a difference of opinion about that. It probably makes further debate on the topic unlikely to be productive. Or we could start a new thread in GD and try to slug it out until one of us admits defeat. sigh
All of this may be getting pretty far off-topic, as all I was trying to suggest (in line with some of the other posters here) is that to label the book or its author (or even, I would add, its characters) as “racist” is fraught with a great deal of emotional and rhetorical significance – so much, in fact, that I think it verges on polemic and I therefore view it with suspicion.
I’m not saying you don’t have a right to get upset about “Waiting to Exhale”. You have the right to get upset about anything you want.
However, black people are in the unfortunate position of not needing a book to remind us how racist this society is. It’s not like we’ve never heard “nigger” before reading “Huckleberry Finn”. And it’s not like black people get a lot of sympathy either. I remember I got into a discussion about the racism in “Gone With the Wind” on this very board, and people kept telling me that I had to “understand the context” and “focus on the BIG story”. And perhaps those people are right (even though I’ll be damned if I’m going to sit through that massively boring piece of crap the next time it comes on TV).
It has something to do with white women because white women are glorified for their beauty in US society. Everyone hates the “prettiest” girl in the room, especially when there are boys in the room. Look at the tension in “The First Wives Club”. Those older women HATED the young women who had “stolen” their men. But the real hatred was for their ex-husbands. The same dynamic is going on in “Waiting to Exhale”.
There isn’t anything wrong with wanting to “get with” people who look like you and who understand your background and traditions.
But it goes back to feelings of rejection. Let’s look at the “First Wives Club” again. The wives could have hooked up with their own younger dudes rather than wasting their energy on bitching and moaning. But for some reason, May-December tends to work for older males but not older women. I suppose the same disparity applies to interracial relations among black women and men, although I’m not sure that it does. There certaintly is a perception that black males can get all the girls they want, while black girls are left in the shadows. The perception explains why there is resentment for black men who go “white”. Whether the perception is based on reality is another story.
Racial slurs are real. Do you think black people can’t be racist?
You aren’t your race, Audrey. “White heffa” is no more personalized than “fat bitch” or “stupid Brit”. Still offensive, but you shouldn’t take it to heart. The characters aren’t talking about you. They are talking about specific white people who are getting on their nerves.
It is stupid. But…although I read the book a while ago, I don’t remember a whole bunch of blame being placed on white people. Black men were the enemy, if the truth be told.
Many people (not necessarily white, mind you) DO think that black women should “settle”. If a guy has a done a stint or two in prison, black women are expected not to judge. If a guy doesn’t have a “good” job, we are often called “gold-diggers” if we find this unsatisfactory. If black women want to get action, they often do have to “settle”. Settling isn’t necessarily bad, but it’s not how I would choose to find a mate.
This is a generalization–I don’t think white women have to go through this dance to the same extent.
Why do you believe the shortage of Good Black Men for Black Women is not true, or at least based on in truth?
But seeing as how Audrey figured out what I was talking about and gave me a response, I don’t know why I’m posting this. Oh yes, I know. Because I don’t know how to ignore pests who like to argue for the sake of arguing.
So the solution to racism is more racism? Let’s assume Huck Finn is racist towards blacks. How does this give blacks the right to disparage whites?
Not true. Every woman is glorified for her beauty. Ther are black models, black Playboy Bunnies, and black Hooters waitresses. You’re making a distinction that doesn’t exist.
No, it’s not another story. It’s the same story we’ve been discussing all evening. It’s not based in reality.
Ohhhhhh, I’d say they can, monstro. I’d certainly say they can.
What does this have to do with anything? It’s still racist.
monstro, this is what I’m talking about. Many people think that white people should settle. Many people think that white people shouldn’t judge prison time, drug habits, or what have you. And if you ever bothered to talk to a white woman, you’d find that quite a few of them are considered “gold-diggers” as well, for the same reasons you mentioned.
If you’d bothered to read the correction which you quoted, you’d find that it was before Audrey posted. But I suppose it’s my fault for pointing out your misquote, right?
Once again, monstro, you’ve got issues.
Read the damn book. I can tell you haven’t by this inane comment.
So you’re saying that four black women can’t be racist?
In Terry McMillan’s world, there are four black women who have been screwed by the men in their life. And their feelings towards white people aren’t all peaches and cream. You do not think such people exist? You think McMillan just created this characters out of thin air?
Now is my turn to say bullshit.
But “condemnation” is such a strong word. You can dislike a book. You can even hate it. But to condemn it…you have to really hate it. And I have a feeling you haven’t read it.
Like I said earlier, we would all like to think we’d act a certain way if we were in different shoes, but that doesn’t mean we would. The truth of the matter is that race is important here. I didn’t even notice the racism (or rather, the offensiveness) in the book until this thread, and I’ve read the book a couple of times. I know this wouldn’t have happened if I was white.
This thread is about “Waiting to Exhale”. It seems to me that if you hated the racism, you would also hate the sexism. Not only against women “bitch, cunt, etc.” but against men. Actually, the book is generally criticized for male-bashing, not white-bashing. Just as there are no “good” whites portrayed, there is only one good man in the whole book. All the other men–even the horny son of one of the characters–is a “dog” in some shape or form.
The fact that you aren’t bothered by the sexism suggest to ME that offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. There is no “right” or “wrong” here. It is a goddamn story. Period.
<standing in the back of the silent crowd and starts with slow applause>
Aholibah , thank you! Now that’s what I call “coming” with the facts.
Monstro , do what you do! I feel you. I hear you. As a black woman, I (somewhat) live you.
I have read the book and seen the movie (many years ago).
I’m hear to inform anyone that does not know, you better ask somebody: It IS very difficult for single black women to find single/educated/gamefully employed/childless black men. This.Is.A.Fact. I blame BLACK MEN. But “blame” is a poor word to use because I don’t really “blame” them. Frankly, I’m happily married to a successful black man. When I was in high shcool in Northern VA, I dated mostly white guys. But when I went off to college, the only guys interested in dating me were black guys. My assumption was that (forgive the joke) college is where most men find their first ex-wife. Relationships have too much potential for being long-lasting in college relationships…a societal pressure that is even too brazen for many high-schoolers.
And it’s not too easy for a black woman to “flip the script” and decide that she’s going to pursue interracial relationships. Black women are truely regarded as some of the lowest scum of the planet. No matter how educated or cultured, most have little respect for us…even OTHER BLACK PEOPLE. Masochistic, yes.
Is the book racist? I don’t think so. But I can totally see where a white person would find a rant with this book. I should clarify and say not just ANY white person, but a sensitive one who is more dedicated and connected to attacks against
its own people.
Oh yeah, before I forget: someone made mention about how absurd it is (total paraphrase) to think that black men are reserved for black women, white men for white women, etc.
A book isn’t a solution, Linty. A book isn’t a presciption for society. It’s simply a reflection of a world the author believes to be True. Condemn society, if you want. But the book isn’t telling black people to disparage white people.
And you are an idiot if you think every woman is glorified for her beauty (How many size-12 super models do you know?). How can you say that white women aren’t the standard of the beauty in American society? Acknowledging this fact does not preclude exceptions–like Halle Berry, Thandi Newton, and Vanessa Williams. But look at these exceptions. Tell me if most black women look like these women.
(I would expect white women to be the standard of beauty in this society. Not because they are more beautiful, but because there are more of them.)
I have gone through great lengths to qualify my statements with things like “I’m not sure” or “I think”. But you speak with such confidence, like you’re sitting on a million cites which support your statements. So, I’m forced to go GD on you.
CITE???
Then why are you having a hard time accepting this book, then?
When did I say that white people DON’T have to go through these things?
But you’re a fool if you think that the dynamics between black women and men are the same as between white women and men. They. Are. Not. The statistics alone support this claim. They don’t support yours.
It’s your fault for looking like an ass. I have no problem arguing over content. I don’t have patience for stupid, juvenile crap.
And I would appreciate if you would stop trying to rile me up by saying I have issues. Once again, it just makes you look stupid.
It wasn’t inane. It was sarcastic. You tried to tell me that the characters weren’t attacking white women. I called bullshit.
No, actually, I’ve spent this entire thread saying that the black women in question (and possibly McMillan herself) were racist.
That’s the third time you’ve misrepresented me. Either read my posts or don’t comment on them, ok?
And this ha-a-a-a-as . . . what to do with censorship?
And finally, you have a point. I misspoke. I meant, of course, women of every race. Part of me thinks that the context was obvious from the rest of the paragraph, but it would be kind of asinine of me to imply that you were an idiot for blaming me for your misquote and then turn around and do the same thing to you. My apologies.
And once again, you expect wrong. Or do you think that every male in America lusts after the fashion pages and nothing else?
Screw that. You’re the one throwing out stuff about white women this and white women that and your expectations and your perceptions. You cite. And cite a reliable study. Don’t give me something that says "Well, according this thing we did a month ago on a random block in Greenwich Village, where we took the opinions of 20 random women on the street . . . " Uh-uh. You’re the one making irresponsible accusations here. The burden of proof is on you to back them up. With reliable sources.
Well . . . here:
and here:
Would you like me to go on?
There are a lot more points I’d like to include in this post, but they’ll have to wait. I’ll just address this last for tonight.
Once again, sarcasm. My quote was in response to what you wrote above. After reading about what white girls don’t have to go through and how statistics prove that black/white dynamics are all messed up, I can definitely see how (some very misguided, pissed-off-at-the-world) black people can be racist.
