Is This Racism?

The BBQ Pit
61

I said they attacked black males MORE.

You know what’s bullshit? The fact that you feel so strongly about a book you haven’t read. Now that’s some BULLSHIT.

I’ve been arguing all along that the world McMillan created is based on reality. You’ve spent the whole thread arguing that this is bullshit. So if I’ve misrepresented you, it’s your own damn fault for not making sense.

If the world McMillan created IS real, then what’s your beef? That she shouldn’t have created it? That the real world should be condemned? What IS your point, Linty Fresh? Make it plain.

And what makes me wrong and you right? I can point to the dominance of white women in fashion, television, movies, etc. to support my claim. You have the fact there a few black Playboy bunnies (just so you know, sex symbol does not equal beauty).

You have been going on and on about how the characters in “Waiting to Exhale” are full of shit. How their perceptions aren’t grounded in reality. You have challenged the entire premise of the book. How about YOU provide some evidence that the book is bullshit?

Read this and then tell me that what I have been saying on this thread has been without merit.

And then produce something–an iota of something–that supports the claim that “Waiting to Exhale” is not reality (which, for the umpteenth time, is my point).

The quotes of mine you selected did not compare to the ignorant statements that you’ve been making on this thread.

But what I would actually like for you to do is read the book. It would make discussing this whole thing much more easier.

You’re touched in the head, aren’t you?

You have absolutely no reason to doubt what I’m saying, except that you just don’t want to believe me. Why are you having such a hard time believing that black women and black men have a different dynamic going on compared to white women and men? Believe me, I’m not making this up. Read the article I posted above. Read the book. Talk to some black people. And you will see what I’m talking about.

Since you’re too stupid to read what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote, I’ll say it again: I don’t think white women have it easy either. But I think they have it easier compared to black women when trying to find suitable mates. First of all, there aren’t more white guys in prison than in college*. This is a reality for black women.

Yes. It is clear you’re a loudmouth who has an opinion about everything, even on stuff he doesn’t know anything about. At least Audrey has read the book and she’s trying to make sense of it. You? You just want to condemn it because of a few quotes you’ve read out of context. I think that’s a sign of immaturity and ignorance.

*[sub]I’m aware of the controversy surrounding this statement.[/sub]

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:smiley:

I love you pizzabrat!

63

It really doesn’t matter if the perception of the women in the book is true in the real world or not. (And I’m not saying it isn’t. That’s not the discussion at hand, really.) The fact is, the characters believe it. And act accordingly. And to present them doing so is neither condoning nor accepting their actions. It is telling about them. If they are realistic characters, or if they represent attitudes and beliefs that do exist in the real world, then the book has done most of its job. (The rest of the job might be entertainment, or something like that.)

You don’t have to agree with the attitudes of the characters. You don’t have to believe that such situations exist in real life. But to say that the book shouldn’t present the characters or the situation because they are morally wrong is quite silly. As is taking personally something that characters in a book believe.

It’s also very possible to accept the book as a good story without enjoying it. It’s possible to learn something from the glimpse of another world that it presents without liking either the book or the characters.

The book itself tells us nothing about the author other than whether she can write a good story well.

64

I went back and saw that even though this is what I mean, it wasn’t clear from my original statement.

65

monstro, I am a white woman who couldn’t agree with you more about the book. I had no idea that there are intelligent people out there who do not understand the writing process. The characters are not the author.

Waiting to Exhale is not about all black people or all white people. It is not even about all black women who have a grudge against white women. It is about specific characters in a work of fiction!

One of the main goals that an author has is to portray realistic characters. These characters don’t have to represent their sex or their race. They are just made up people. Would any of you deny that there exist a few Black women who resent white women? The author has chosen to write about those particular characters who have that particular trait as part of their makeup.

The book does not imply that any white women are bitches and cunts. If it did, then it would be racist. Instead the characters think that certain white females (still other fictitious characters) are that way.

Authors and publishers assume that intelligent people reading their novels will not confuse the point of view of the characters with the point of view of the author. Your English teachers should have taught you this.

What if the author’s next book is about a courageous young white woman who is the victim of rape? Will you assume then that she has changed her views on race?

If the book she writes after that is a sad and sympathetic story of a prostitute in Vietnam in the 1960’s, will you assume that she supports prostitution?

If I were to write a novel about a Nazi and he says vile things about Blacks and Jews, would any of you assume that I hate Blacks and Jews? Would you assume that I was on the side of the Nazi?

What if in the same book, I portrayed a Jewish woman who smuggled all of her children to safety before losing her own life? Would you think I had changed my opinion in mid book or even mid page?

deep breath I realize now that I have been shouting at some of you with this post. .:smack: Sorry. Didn’t mean to get carried away. But here it is.

66

I agree Zoe. With everything.
bows to Zoe

67

Noble sentiments.

They do not, however, reflect the social reality in the US in terms of still extent barriers between ‘racial’ intermarriage and gender imbalance in the marriage market for black americans.

Given the realities, it’s highly understandable if as well highly regretable that no small number of black Americans hold the sentiments described in the book, whatever empty and pious posturing people may want to engage in.

Having dated a professional black woman (who I regret to say I broke up with before her becoming a VP at a top internaitonal bank, stupid me (this is humor I may add)) I can’t say I can report more than some odd cold shoulders from black people back at the time. On the other side of the coin, my “own people” were rather less welcoming.

Plenty of unspoken double standards all around in the end.

68

One of my former students, a bright and beautiful young Black woman, was stationed at Camp Pendleton. On Christmas morning her body was found – in the living quarters, I think. She had been stabbed over a hundred times. “No one heard anything.” Back here in her hometown, the scuttlebutt was that she was dating white men and that some of her darker skinned female friends did not take to that idea very well. That has been almost 25 years and the memory of her catches me unaware sometimes.

Is it really true that some Black women “object” to other Black women who date white males? If so, that was something that I was unaware of until her death.

69

OK, I’m going to back up and separate the debate into what it started out as, what it progressed to, and the separate arguments it has become. Before I do that, I’m going to issue a couple of retractions and admissions.

Retraction 1: Looked up some stats and read the op-ed piece. It appears that there is a gap between educated black men and educated black women. I was wrong to say there wasn’t. Is this problem limited solely to the black community? Hardly. Is the man shortage a problem that can be examined only in racial terms. No.

Retraction 2: monstro, you are right to say that I should read the book or see the movie. The thing is that this debate didn’t start out as that. FWIW, the movie came out when I was in the army. I was off that day and thinking about catching the evening showing until several of my friends (white) said they had walked out halfway through the matinee, because the movie was so racist. I then ran into my (black) platoon leader who caught the matinee (with his black, college-educated wife, I might add), who said that even he was squirming through it. So I gave it a miss. It’s not really the genre I’m interested in, anyway. Yet, it might be worth my while. Of course with grad-school, work, and private study, it might be a while.

Retraction 3: I’m going to go ahead and assume that McMillan herself isn’t racist. You all are right. There isn’t enough proof either way, and the one quote she made on race was decidedly anti-racist.

Now, then as to how the argument began:

Audrey started out by showing quotes from the book, explaining how stuff like “white heffa” and the rest seemed to set the tone for the main characters in the book. She asked if it was racist. I said that, yes, if that was the tone of the attitudes toward the book, it most certainly exhibited racism. I also wondered out loud if this reflected McMillan’s stance, pointing out that she hadn’t been asked the question.

The argument took the turn into “McMillan was just showing things the way they really are,” an issue I disagreed with. I maintained (wrongly) that there was no shortage of black, educated men, and went on to say (rightly) that it certainly isn’t white women’s fault that many black women can’t date.

The argument quickly mutated into whether the black characters were justified in feeling that way toward whites. I (rightly) said no, that racism is racism.

Then the argument somehow got into “How hard is it for the black woman in society today with beauty standards and such?” and the shit hit the fan.

I am going with the last three arguments here (and they are separate arguments). In the next post, I’m discussing them in reverse order.

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“How hard is it for the black woman in society today with beauty standards and such?”

monstro, I never said that life wasn’t tough for black women. I never said that blacks had it easy, and I agree with you that anyone who maintains otherwise is a fool. Yes, I was wrong to believe there wasn’t a male shortage, but it seems to me your comments go wayyyy beyond that.

Let’s go back to this quote:

You tell me if most white women look like these women. White women who don’t look like Thandi Newton suffer too, monstro. White women who don’t look like supermodels get overlooked, too. The modelling and fashion industries promote what is essentially the easiest lie to swallow for young females: Look like me, and you’re life will be great. White women are as caught up in this nonsense as black women.

And guess what? It is nonsense. Not every man wants a supermodel. Not every man is looking for someone who looks like Cindy Crawford. You are making generalizations about sexual attraction, which is a topic in which generalizations just don’t apply. I can’t say as I blame you. When I was young, I made the same ones. We are bombarded with TV images telling us what we should look like, and what every man wants. I could go on all morning on this, but let’s just say that “Everyman” doesn’t exist.

Once again, you are taking a problem that is not based in race, a problem dealt with by women of all races, and turning it into something it’s not.

(No, if I felt this way, I shouldn’t have given the example of “playboy bunny.” Wrong turn.)

Now let’s examine the op-ed piece. Not really statistics, but it was a very interesting read. And once again, I retract what I said about shortages of black men.

But guess what? Once again, everyone gets to share the pain. Let’s go back to these quotes:

Quite a few white women in rural, underdeveloped areas of America would be very interested to hear you say that, monstro. I’m here to tell you that yes, they are expected to settle, and yes they do have to look far and wide for a life partner. You see, I grew up in one of those areas. Unemployement (When Ames went under, it devastated my hometown). Lousy demographics. Racism. Boredom. And, more recently, drugs. Not even good drugs. Drugs that make you see things and lose your money and your respect and your teeth without even giving you a good high.

You think a white, middle-class professional wants to raise a family there? The demographics are all screwed up for white women, too all over America, too, monstro. Black women aren’t the only ones feeling the pain.

Life is not limited to a New York City catwalk or an office in Newark, or a cubicle in Boston. Life is a whole lot more complicated than that.

If you want to read more on this, I invite you to read anything written by Cynthia Heimel.

71

Are black women (specifically the black women in Waiting to Exhale) justified in their comments towards white women?

Well, I say hell no. What is this going to solve? How do they think themselves out of the situation if they put the blame on “heffas”?

More to the point, it isn’t right. I don’t like racists. Period. Whether that racist happens to come from Clarksville, Tennessee, Harlem, NY, or Seoul, Korea makes no difference to me. I was raised on the notion that you don’t put down another’s race, no matter what. Blame the individual, blame the institution or blame the system. It’s not the race’s fault. And when you start flinging around racial epiteths, you lose all credibility from the get-go.

Oh, and btw, when you’re done blaming them, it’s time to get up and do something about it.

Once again, I retract what I said about McMillan herself being racist. Once again, I need to read the book. But based on what Audrey said in the OP, these characters were being racist. Assuming that what Audrey posted was representative of the attitudes, and from what I’ve read from these posts and heard of the movie, I’d say that’s a safe assumption. No one’s tried to refute what these characters have said. No one’s made the claim that they were being ironic.

72

What part of the responsibility do white women shoulder for the black man shortage at hand?

Well, I would say none, really. First of all, it’s not an issue of blame. There’s nothing to blame white women for. Every black man could wake up tomorrow determined to date a white woman, and that would be their choice. What right does anyone have to complain about that? People are free to make their own life’s choices.

But it’s a moot point. You see, nothing you’ve shown me makes the point that white women have anything to do with the black person shortage. Not your op-ed piece, not your arguments, and certainly not your perceptions, which I still find hard to swallow after the number of educated, well turned-out black men I’ve met in the military, professional and college spheres. All I’ve seen and heard about white women is how easy they have it when dating, and how educated black men want to marry white women. Show me the proof.

Once again, the burden of proof for this assertion is on you, not me. You did a good job with the op-ed piece on the third argument. Is there anything to show me on this one? Because if there isn’t, I’m not the one raving here.

73

Well through all this arguing on racism, there appears to be consensus on one point. That is that any woman, black or white who marries a short order cook has done so due to limited choice. I find this attitude just as reprehensible as racism and sexism and boldly state that such an unfortunate attitude appears to predominate among the female gender. One should refrain from generalizing on the quality of humanity inherent among short order cooks, and I find that calling them “fry jockeys” is demeaning.

Just fast food for thought.

74

Ok, this is where the newbie jumps into the fire with her flame suit on…

I am a white woman who has spent a fair portion of her life in the black community. I worked at HBC’s (historically black colleges and universities) I have dated black men, I live in a predominately black neighborhood. And I have read Waiting to Exhale. None of this makes me an expert on black culture, but it has given me a chance to witness and discuss the perceptions that black women have about interracial dating.

But I am not here to discuss THEIR feelings, because they are individualistic and can not be held up has representative of the whole. What I want to say is how I, as a white woman who has been declared an “honorary sistah”, view this whole discussion.

The quotes from the book that were quoted in the topic post were made by FICTIONAL CHARACTERS in the heat of anger. The husband of the main characters was found to be cheating with his white secretary. If the both the wife and husband were white, the vindictive would’ve been “blonde bitch” instead of “white heffa” And the character wasn’t blaming the secretary for this, just indicating her belief that the ONLY reason her husband cheated on her with this woman was because the secretary was white. If you don’t think this happens in the real world, you are ignorant and naive. Think about it, don’t you know people who aspire to be a different kind of person, richer, wealthier, or more popular? For some black men, this means dating white women. (NOTE: I did not say all black men or even most black men. ) For some men, regardless of race, dating an asian woman is desireable because it makes them feel more powerful. Personally, I refuse to date black men who only want to date me because I am white.

Ok I have written a whole tirade on how most of the statements on this thread show a prime-time network TV view of the social dynamics between the races, but have deleted it b/c I was getting angry over statements made by people I have never met.

Chestnutmare is now returning to the trivial threads…

75

Linty Fresh, I appreciate your retractions. Perhaps I was hasty calling you immature.

But you need to go back and read what I’ve written. I’ve never excused the racism of the characters. I have only sought to provide an explanation for their feelings and tried to defend charges from you that they weren’t based on reality.

The book is meant to provoke this kind of debate. When you condemn a book just because of its characters, then you stifle any kind of discussion and education.

Even if you don’t think the women are justified in feeling “second best” to white women, that’s not the point. Just like thirdwarning said, the book is about the characters’ feelings and perceptions. The feelings can’t be debated; they just are.

Do most super models have “fair” skin?

Do they have long flowing hair?

Do they have European facial features?

The ugliest white woman in the world can have these things naturally. In order for black women to be considered pretty in this society, they have to have at least one of these features. Unlike most white women, most black women aren’t born with these features. The next time you watch television and you see a commercial for cosmetics featuring black women, see how many of them have naturally kinky hair, dark skin, and broad facial features. If you are blessed with these African features, you’re constantly looking at a world that says these things are ugly and that they should be changed. I lived with relaxed hair for almost twenty years because of this myth. When I told people I was going natural, you should have seen the shocked looks on their faces.

Combined with the fact that there are more white women than black women, one can understand why a black woman would feel threatened by white women. This does not mean this is OK. This does not mean that they can’t be racist with their resentment. But the feeling is understandable and is thus not “bullshit”.

We are discussing “Waiting to Exhale”, a book not about all women, but specifically four black women. Their experience is not typical of all women. Hell, it’s not even typical of black women. But it certainly relevant to contemporary issues specifically affecting black women. If you have a problem that Terry chose to focus just on black women, you have a problem with her. Not with me.

(The fact that women of all races enjoys “Waiting to Exhale” suggests to me that the story is universal, despite the fact that there are “black-specific” things going on in it.)

I don’t like racists either, but I can overlook their faults (if they are minor, as they are in this book) if I’m reading an interesting story about them. We all have faults because we’re human. Racism is a fault. And I’ve come to realize that a person can be prejudiced and still a good person–even towards people who they are prejudiced against. Just because one of the characters thinks someone is a “white heffa” does not mean that person has “Kill Whitey” literature strewn about their living room.

I’ve read books by black authors in which the terms “black heffa” and “high-yella heffa” were thrown about. As someone with a “high yella” complexion, I could choose to take offense. But I could also choose not to personalize it since the character is talking about a specific individual.

I don’t think the racism of the characters has been denied by anyone. So if you’ve been debating whether or not the characters are racist all this time, you’ve been arguing with yourself.

Go see the movie (which is what you’re more likely to do). You will see the story has really nothing to do with white people.

How you doin’, Collounsbury? :smiley:

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Welcome aboard, chestnutmare!

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You are ranting now. Where have I said that white people are the blame for anything, or that black men are flocking to white women? These are constructions of your imagination. Your last post is full of strawmen. I don’t want to ruin the peace of the morning by ripping them (and you) apart.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, Linty, but if you want to continue talking about this book with me, you will need to read it. How am I supposed to explain the world presented in the book if you haven’t even been exposed to it? I’m tired of lecturing to you, honestly.

You have NO idea if you’re blowing this thing out of proportion . Don’t you think you should read the book to make sure that your ranting is proportionate to the offensiveness of the story? Seems like this is most prudent course of action rather than continuing to post on this thread.

78

Jesus CHrist! You win! They’re racist! You don’t need to bleat it from the roof tops anymore. The question is—so the fuck what? They are fictional characters. The author chose to give them this charactertistic for whatever reasons. Perhaps it was said in the heat of themoment and they dont’ feel that way—or really they do? So the fuck what? To continue to harp on this small point, pointing out over and over that you just don’t like racism is absolutely pointless. Wee, you have the ability to see blatant racism. I laud your accomplishment. Now either go read the fucking book and come up with some constructive criticism and debate, asking yourself why the author would do this, what she hopes to demonstrate, if she wants you to condemn it, condone it, or just accept it, and move the fuck on.
The book is a reflectoin of society. Every novel ever written is a reflection of society—either in general, or subsets. Getting pissed at fictional characters and going on and on is not going to change that the feelings expressed are real. It’s clear from your posts that you don’t even know why they’re real, and yet on you go, whining and whining about how racist and stupid it is. You’re never going to solve any problems in the world, or even understand those fictional characters, unless you actually put some thought into it.
Let me give you an example. Scarlet O’Hara in Gone With the Wind is a blatantly racist woman. You see all the black men and women through her eyes, and so they all come across and simpletons or annoying simpletons. WHy would the author do this? What was she trying to demonstrate? What was the response the author was trying to elicit? Who was the intended audience? How did you perceive Scarlet? I could start a pit thread bleating about racism too, but that would be entirely missing the point.
Move. The. Fuck. On.

And furthermore, Monstro doesn’t have to prove jack shit to you. I agree with Collounsbury on this one. Go back and re-read his post. Besides that, the point is—how do black women feel? It doesn’t have to be rational or logical—it’s how they preceive the world around them. Sometimes I feel like fat women can’t catch a break. But shoot, lots of fat women are happy either married or not married. Doesn’t make my feelings any less valid. And just because you think that it’s silly, doesn’t make these feelings go away or any less valid.

79

I had a devastating post written but monstro, DEVA & chestnutmare said all I needed to say.

It boils down to this, to me – this is a work of fiction, featuring characters expressing particular feelings viewed through the very macro lens of storytelling, showing only that which is germane to the narrow snapshot of their lives and experiences expressed in the particular storyline of this novel. It’s not meant as some manifesto on race relations or an exposé of the mass consciousness of black women. It’s not an instructional primer or a textbook about social issues. It’s not an all-encompassing expression of the real range, depth or breadth of emotion or belief of any real person. It’s a book about four nonexistent women who express their opinions about non-existent situations that you disagree with. Nothing more, nothing less, and if you don’t like it, stop reading.

That’s how fiction works. Labeling it as something bigger and badder than that is a pointless academic exercise that doesn’t serve any purpose. (Unless, of course, you are actually seeking to use a pulpy fiction bestseller in an academic context and assigning it more importance and significance than it could have possibly ever held while written by mortal human hand. In which case, I just worry about you.)

However, points if WtE makes you want to honestly explore the issues of what life is like in this society for a black woman, and the larger contemporary problems of the black community, more power to you. It’s a good thing, but it requires actual study, not pontificating about what is and isn’t racist in the context of a message board.

80

I guess it’s late in the game to jump in and say I don’t find the examples in the OP to be particularly horrible. First of all, of the four examples I would only consider the first two (using white as a pejorative: white bitch, white heffer) slurs at all. The second two examples are of a woman bemoaning the influence of Barbie dolls and tv over their family and there’s nothing racist about that. The book is ten years old and its politics are very specific to a generation of women who questioned popular culture and its influence on their lives.

The actual slurs, ‘white bitch’ occur in a context that shouldn’t be ignored. I get the feeling that it doesn’t matter whether someone has read the book or not, some people can’t feel sympathy when they see a racial perjorative regardless of context and that’s well intentioned enough, I suppose, but to others it’s a pretty black and white (no pun) way to read a book. Catching your son getting a blowjob is a bit of an emotionally screwed up moment. Ditto having a husband leave. If this story involves characters who question institutional racism and the way people are valued in a culture that is predominantly white-influenced, and the entire time they sit on a pedestal of perfect conduct in thought and deed to the point where they remain colourblind saints what kind of book would it be? Harlequin Romance? What kind of reader would care about this sanitized, two-dimensional character? Who wants to read a book where a character can express discomfort about racial issues in society while standing on a pedistal of perfect conduct in thought and deed at all times? This is not a recipe for a good book.

These are feminist issues that were explored a lot ten years ago when these two books were written. "Is it fair for me to express resentment towards women who benefit from a racist and sexist beauty ideal?’ The type of person who would have picked up Waiting to Exhale would likely be aware of the fact that it’s hypocritical to say ‘white bitch’ but understand the impulse and forgive it when it slips out. I’ve never really known a person who doesn’t understand that it’s a complex issue. The only time I hear from these people who are completely insensitive to context is the internet or talk radio where white men moan about reverse sexism and reverse racism as if they’ve been everything has been squared away and evened up.

A novel is the perfect place to make people think about something like ‘reverse racism.’ If Terry McMillan had left it out she would basically be saying her characters were above it and that would be a statement in itself. I do not agree that the characters in a book do not portray part of the world as the author sees it. If McMillan wrote a book about women who occasionally react with knee jerk resentment toward white women it’s because that is part of the problem she is deliniating. If she had wanted her characters to be above it all she would have constructed a reality where only white people are racist and black people are above it all and always bear it with grace and aplomb. She would be creating a pathetically simplified reality where everyone is either a racist or not. If she wanted to do that she could have just pretended nobody was ever affected by racism and left the whole issue out. There are nuances to the topic. Characters in novels are constructed to explore nuances and leave questions and judgements for the reader. Not to tell everyone how it should be.

Sorry if I’m re-iterating a lot of what people have said. It shocks me that anyone thinks the statements in the OP are so awful that the book should be condemned. I don’t even think the characters should be condemned. That’s my opinion but the bottom line is that books are supposed to make you think and saying the book should be condemned because a character does something wrong and it isn’t openly questioned in the text is stupid. That’s not how good novels are constructed.