Is this rape?

[Freudian_Slit]

@Larry_Borgia

I think it’s a matter of degree. But having a little experience in the area, I don’t think any intoxicant could make me do anything I really didn’t want to do, though it might have killed that little voice saying “that’s a really bad idea, Larry.” Obviously somebody who molests a passed out person is committing sexual assault or rape. However if it’s someone who’s up and about going “whoo-hoo let’s screw” I can’t see that she (or he) can cry rape when they wake up and regret it.

Yeah, I think I would agree here. As long as the person is using legal methods (i.e., not slipping roofies), we can argue that they’re sleazy or scummy, but I don’t think we can apply the word “rape.” Not unless we want that word to lose all meaning.

I’ve gotten drunk and woken up regretting drinking so much because I’m hungover today. But if I freely chose to drink, then I don’t have anyone to blame but myself. I think the same thing applies to sex. I may regret having had sex with cute, random stranger because I’m in a relationship that’s now over or because I don’t believe in premarital sex but gave in because he was sooo hot…but I just feel like I’d need to take personal responsibility.

I think it gets murkier when someone is so drunk that they can’t consent to anything but if we’re taking drugs and alcohol out of the question entirely (and Jedi mind tricks), then I don’t think that being charming or taking advantage of a perceived “vulnerability” really qualifies as rape.

[phouka]

@Kobal2

I see your point. So what’d you call that “grey” area going from morally-ambiguous-at-best to downright_despicable which lies between full, honest to God consent and forcible rape ?

See, what I like about “rape” is that, while it’s probably much too strong a word for that, it does a very good job of conveying the message that no, it’s not OK, it’s never OK and it never will be OK. There are few epithets more universally reviled than “rapist”, and way too many guys who (disingenuously or not) will say “she didn’t say no, that’s good enough for me”.

I would call it a gray area that ranges from morally ambiguous at best to downright despicable. I know it’s too long, and you can’t dance to it, but it works for me. Not every idea can be summed up as a pithy slogan.

I understand that rape and rapist carry a visceral punch sorely lacking in the above idea, but English is a creative and adaptive language. Surely we can come up with a word or phrase that sums up all that is despicable, unmanly, and revulsive as a guy willing to take “not a no” for a “yes”. Hell, Adam Savage and his column Savage Love came up with santorum to describe the frothy mixture of lube and feces after a bout of butt sex.

Personally, I think anyone that takes “not a no” for consent should be mocked without mercy, sexually shunned, and forcibly ejected from all further reindeer games. Who’s with me?

[Freudian_Slit]

@phouka

I would call it a gray area that ranges from morally ambiguous at best to downright despicable. I know it’s too long, and you can’t dance to it, but it works for me. Not every idea can be summed up as a pithy slogan.

I understand that rape and rapist carry a visceral punch sorely lacking in the above idea, but English is a creative and adaptive language. Surely we can come up with a word or phrase that sums up all that is despicable, unmanly, and revulsive as a guy willing to take “not a no” for a “yes”. Hell, Adam Savage and his column Savage Love came up with santorum to describe the frothy mixture of lube and feces after a bout of butt sex.

I agree, and started another thread about sexual situations that may not be legally rape but are creepy and coercive. I wish more people held themselves to higher standards. You know, knowing that someone doesn’t want to have sex but then just taking that as a challenge.

[even_sven]

Let’s give women some credit here. The paternalism is making me itchy.

We are capable of making our own decisions. Furthermore, we are responsible for our own decisions. We don’t need men to protect us from ourselves. I promise you that if I decide to sleep with somebody, it is because some part of me wanted to. Not because I’m a weak-willed and feeble-minded creature whose ready to fall for any sweet-talking player’s charms. Don’t try to tell me that I don’t know my own mind.

Also note the undercurrent in this discussion that women don’t like sex, or that sex somehow diminishes us, or that sex is something that women give and men take. Men have sex they regret all the time, but we look at that totally different. Hell, I think most of us would expect a guy to have sex even if he knew ahead of time that he’d end up regretting it. Well, women like sex, too.

Rape has meaning. It means you don’t consent and can’t resist because of physical force, meaningful threats or intoxication to the point that you are physically incapable of giving consent.

Taking advantage of anybody’s weak spots just to get something you want is sleazy and uncool. But there is a difference between a good salesman, a slick conman, and an armed bandit.