Is Rape Inherently 'Wrong'?

Hypothetical question-

If we define rape as meaning “to force someone to submit to a sex act”, can we really say that this is always ‘wrong’, in every case?

Suppose you have a husband and wife in bed together. While the husband is asleep, he gets an erection, as most men do. Upon noticing this, the man’s wife proceeds to orally rape him- he was never asked for his permission, it was just assumed that he would have wanted it.

Do you think this type of rape is ‘wrong’? If the husband reported this crime to the police, how do you think they would react?? Do you think he will need years of therapy to get over this???

And what if, instead, the husband raped his wife by performing oral sex on her while she was passed out drunk. Would your reaction be different in this case? Why??

Thanks.

Well, IANAL, but I think it’s probably rape if there’s no permission and the person chooses to press charges. However, if I wake up to discover that I’m receiving oral sex, I won’t tell, I promise…:smiley:

I think the law generally uses a more specific definition of “rape” than simply “forcing someone to submit to a sex act”. It probably depends on the state.

When you trot out highly unlikely hypothetical situations like someone prosecuting their spouse for performing oral sex on them while they sleep, you really need to spell out your agenda a little more clearly so we know how to answer the question. Are you suggesting that the definition of “rape” is too broad? Are you planning a surprise for your girlfriend and you want to know if it’s strictly legal? Tell us.

Did the husband wake up?

Kalhoun-“Did the husband wake up?

What difference does it make?

cuauhtemoc-“When you trot out highly unlikely hypothetical situations like someone prosecuting their spouse for performing oral sex on them while they sleep, you really need to spell out your agenda a little more clearly so we know how to answer the question.

I don’t have any ‘agenda’. I just noticed that there appears to be somewhat of a double standard here, and wanted to know what other Dopers thought about this issue.

In your first case it is most likely that the couple has had sexual relations before and I would think the wife would have some understanding of what the husband does and does not want - she is merely initiating sexual contact through oral stimulation. He would probably not be asleep long under the circumstances and could then consent or not to the situation. What is important here is: When he woke up and requested she stop - if she refused to stop then this could be considered be rape and would be wrong.

Due to society I think the police would laugh him out of the station but that would be wrong too. Although I can’t see any man waking up to oral sex from his wife and telling her to stop.

I think your second case is more stilted towards rape because since she is ‘passed out drunk’ she is not likely to awaken from the stimulation and be able to make her feelings known. The alcohol has taken away her ability to consent or not.

I believe rape implies that the victim either cannot give consent or has refused consent and the rapist continues anyway.

No one should have sex forced upon them. I cannot see a case where sex is forced upon someone and this not be a bad thing.

It is possible to rape a spouse. Unfortunately it is also not taken as seriously as stranger rape.

IMHO, tanookie hit the nail on the head.

Also (and also IMHO), there is not a “double standard”, there is just a recognition that the act of (heterosexual) rape when perpetrated on a man, has different consquences than when perpetrated on a woman (obviously).
One could also think of it in non-sexual terms; would you rather have someone force your arm into a hole in the ground, or shove something up your nose? Which would feel less traumatic to you?

I know I’m going to regret this, but…

There is a lot wrong with this. If we decide that the couple’s having/not having had sexual relations before is relevant to whether or not it’s rape, then it automatically becomes harder to convict a man who rapes a woman with whom he’s had consensual sex before, and vice versa.

Also, if we decide that it’s relevant that “she stopped when he asked him to” then how can you judge a man who puts his penis into a sleeping woman’s vagina, but then pulls it out when she wakes up and tells him to stop?

Damn, I’m really asking for it today.

For some masochistic reason, I feel the need to point out that the OP didn’t imply penetration, he was talking about licking the pussy of a woman who cannot give consent to having her pussy licked.

This actually happened to me when I was at college, and it was by someone with whom I was not sexually or emotionally involved: a female acquaintance whose party I had attended. I drank a bit too much and went to sleep it off in her room. I woke up being ‘molested’ by her.

I was delighted.

On reflection, however, I realise that if this had been done to me by someone I hadn’t found attractive, I would indeed have felt violated.

I understand your point, cuauhtemoc, and agree that just because you had sex with someone once doesn’t mean you can’t refuse to have sex with someone in the future and if you do refuse and are raped that should be treated as a crime. I also understand it is possible to be raped by a spouse.

What I was trying to say is that a certain amount of sexual contact is assumed in a marriage. For the OP’s purposes I have assumed these are two people sleeping together in the marriage bed. Generally, unless this is your honeymoon, a married couple has a shared history and unless there are other problems in the marriage one spouse does not usually decide to assault the other one (sexually or otherwise) unless maybe there is a sudden onset of mental illness or something likewise dramatic.

For example: I am generally receptive to my husband’s advances and he is likewise generally receptive to mine. If I woke him in the night by trying to initiate sex this is usually recieved as a positive thing. If he did not like that kind of awakening he could certainly let me know and I would never do that again. Would that be attempted rape and worthy of criminal charges or miscommunication between spouses?

We don’t know a lot about the ficticious people in the OP. Has he ever expressed the idea that he would not like his wife to wake him this way? Has he objected to oral sex in other circumstances? Has he ever commented that it is a fantasy of his to be woken this way. Has she done this before and had a favorable reaction?

Certainly if the man had a traumatic incident with someone forcing themselves on him while he was asleep and he had shared that with his wife and expressed that he never wanted to be woken like that again it would be irresponsible at best and criminal at worst for her to do this.

I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense to people other than me! :slight_smile:

Oh and I forgot about this other point:

I’m not really sure how this is going to be recieved but where is this woman sleeping? Is she sleeping naked? Who is this man?

If she is sleeping naked in her room at home and a stranger breaks in to her house and initiates sex with her I cannot see that as anything other than rape.

Is this sleeping woman naked next to her husband who decides a little midnight sex would be fun? Then I think we are back to the situation in my above post.

It is just a little difficult (I’m sure not impossible) unless you sleep like the dead to have someone enter your room, remove your blankets (and any clothes that may be in the way, then open someone’s legs and position themselves over them in bed and insert his penis before she wakes up.

I also don’t want to seem like I am blaming the victim. I’m just trying to acknowledge different circumstances. Random men trying to force sex upon strange women in the middle of the night is different than a spouse trying to rouse a partner for sex (unless the partner has previously expressed sex is undesirable)

Yes, but these are all questions they ask a woman on the stand testifying that someone has raped her. I think we’d all agree that if a guy, even her husband, forced her to have sex with him against her will, it’s irrelevant that

a. they’ve had sex before
b. she didn’t object to having sex in other circumstances
c. she once commented that it was a fantasy of hers
d. she never expressed the idea that she would not like him to do this to her

If this woman were you or someone you loved, how would you like to hear a prosecutor asking these questions? I know I wouldn’t.

I’m sorry, I meant a defense attorney, not a prosecutor. The defense attorney would be the one defending the guy who’s accused of raping her.:smack:

You are right that I would hate to have a prosecutor ask me or anyone else those questions.

I’m just having a hard time reconciling the violence and powerlessness of rape with the instance in the OP. I’m also having trouble seeing how in a happy, healthy, stable marriage one person is going to wake up at 2:00am and decide ‘hey lets rape my spouse.’

As to the first example in the OP, yes it’s rape, and yes it’s wrong. It’s possible that the man would have been traumatized by it, and the woman didn’t know that to begin with. If he wasn’t, well, that’s fortunate, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not wrong.

Say I steal someone’s lava lamp. But it turns out they were going to throw it out the next day anyway. No harm done in the end, but what I did was still wrong, because I didn’t know that it wouldn’t cause harm.

Now, of course, if the woman was more aware of the man’s reaction, it would change things. But the default assumption should not be, “He probably wouldn’t mind.”

I think rape is inherently wrong but the situation in the OP isn’t necessarily rape.

I’m sure people could argue that since the man is hard, his body consented to sex (in that he must be dreaming about having sex etc). No such indicators on a female are available.

If a women in the reverse situation is touching herself (because of some erotic dream) and the husband notices and joins in (the touching I mean) is that rape?

It’s not to say I think if someone is enjoying the sex but still calls the police to report a rape is wrong, it’s just unlikely anyone enjoying any sex (male or female) is going to go through the trouble. It’s not a double standard since most women are picky over who they enjoy sex with, the same can’t generally be said of guys.

Oddly enuf, upon googling the research for this thread, I find that the legal definition of Rape has to include intercourse. So the OP’s scenario might constitute felonious fellatio but not rape in the legal sense.

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Abuse/lisk/legal_rape_definition.htm

So with the case of the OP where the wife allegedly “sexually assaulted” her husband, there was resonable expectaion of consent since they had been previously consensually having sex, he was sleeping with her, and had expressed no verbal or non-verbal objection to the act.

Had she mounted her husband and started riding him like a mechanical bull, the rape would have started the moment he wakes up and says no and she still kept on ridin’.

oh, the opposite of felonious fellatio is criminal cunnilingus. :smiley:

Now see, we’ve got a problem right here. This is not the legal definition of rape. It is not the dictionary definition of rape. It isn’t even a useful definition for practical purposes. Many people enjoy mutually consensual sex play that involves some use of force. It is also possible to commit sexual acts upon the body of another without their consent but without resorting to force. If the victim is unconscious or otherwise incapacitated force isn’t necessary.

Force is frequently a component of rape, but the crucial element is not the use of force but rather unwillingness or absence of consent on the part of victim.

Under your definition above this isn’t rape, because force was not involved.

Legally, it would depend on local law. Some states do not recognize spousal rape at all, under any circumstances.

Ethically, your scenario does not provide enough information to determine whether a wrong was done. You say the wife believed her husband would enjoy the experience, so she did not have any malicious intent. And if the husband did in fact enjoy it then no harm, no foul. If he was upset by it then the wife did cause him emotional pain, although still more information would be needed to determine whether her actions were the result of a reasonable mistake or misunderstanding.