Is this type of remodelling possible? Cost?

Factual Questions
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I’m wondering whether [url=http://www.homes.com/Content/ListingDetail.cfm?PropId=80784322] this house might serve my purposes with a couple of changes. I’d appreciate any thoughts as to whether what I’m thinking of is possible, as well as any guesses (huge ballpark) as to the magnitude and costs of the changes.

It has 3 bedrooms upstairs, a full bath up, and 1/2 bath down. We would like a 4th room that could serve as a bedroom for a kid home from college, and at least 2 full baths (shower only is fine). We also very much desire a front porch.

As you can see, it used to have a front porch running the entire front of the house. Immediately behind the enclosed front porch is a long narrow living room (“LR”) measuring 12X22.

I could imagine opening up the left 2/3 of the front porch to create an open front porch, moving the stairs around to the left 1/3 of the front of the house to give it more of a bungalow-type appearance, and leaving the center 1/3 open as a porch. I don’t envision that being too huge of a deal. But what I thought might be problemmatic concerned the remaining right 1/3 of the porch.

I was wondering if I could keep the right 1/3 8’ of the porch enclosed, and even extend it approximately 4’ into the existing LR to create a room approximately 12x8. This would reduce the size of the LR to about 12x12. Then, the space behind this new room that used to be LR could be used to try to enlarge the 1st floor bathroom which is right there. Does that make any sense?

What I thought might be problemmatic, tho, is that the front 8x8 of this room would have previously been enclosed porch, and the rear 4x8 would have been inside the house. Therefore, this would require removing - or at least substantially opening up - part of the home’s original front wall.

Is this at all doable? Is it a monstrous and unadvisable undertaking, or is it relatively readily handled with modern construction technology by inserting the proper supports and beams?

The other addition we were thinking about was bumping a dormer out across the entire back of the second floor, to enlarge 2 of the 3 beds up there, maybe gain closet space, and the like The entire dormer would be approximately 8x25. Any experience with this sort of thing?

Would these types of things take days? Weeks? Months? would you need/want to move out while they were being done. Would you figure they would cost $50K? $100K? $200K?

One final question. The existing garage is 1.5 car - approx 15’ wide with a 10’ extension on the back. The slab and structure appear pretty solid, but I’m no expert. I was thinking about erecting a 3 car L-shaped garage, with 2 bays in the front, and one tandem behind the left bay. If doing this sort of thing would standard practice be to tear down the existing garage/slab, or to add on to it?

Right now this is all simply in the “what if?” category. We don’t even have our current home listed yet. But we are trying to get a good handle on what types of homes might be out there to move to. We intend to have a contractor inspect any particular home with us before we consider making an offer.

Thanks.

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corrected link

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All these things are doable, and in fact would probably be seen as pretty ordinary alterations. My ballpark guess is $100-125K, and three or four weeks of work (not including the garage). I’m not sure I wouldn’t object to the back dormer on aesthetic grounds, though. You already have a front dormer, and it might look weird to have those dormers fore and aft.

But maybe this is a case where you’d be better served holding out for a house that better meets your needs.

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Thanks. The funny thing about finding a house that meets your needs is that it is pretty tough to do unless yu build yourself! :stuck_out_tongue:

There are a couple of huge things in this house/property’s favor. Mainly it is a large (75x170) lot for the area, within easy walking distance of my daily train, and on an extremely quiet street. IMO those are the kind of factors that you can’t “remodel.” :wink:

But we are still very early in the process. Haven’t even placed our home on the market yet. I suspect a tension between my wife and I will concern our respective willingness to rehab. I suspect she would prefer something “turn key.” I am not at all sure such a thing exists, on a lot I would like. And if it does, it would be pricey. OTOH it seems to me that we could get something much cheaper with good bones on a good loot, and spend the time and money making it into exactly what we want. We’ll see how this plays out.

Re: the dormers - there already is a small dormer out the back similar to the one in front. And it looks fine (to my eye). What I was thinking about was essentially “bumping out” the entire back of the 2d story, so the “dormer” runs the entire width of the house. Essentially the side view would look as tho the rear roofline were at a less-severe angle than the front. And from the rear it would simply look like a 2-story.

I’ve seen many houses like that in the past, and it does not look at all bad to me. In fact, a large number of “bungalows” have rooflines like this. Does my description make any sense to you?

A final point - this town is rife with teardowns and additions of questionable integrity, so I am very aware of the concerns you suggest. IMO, the changed roofline would look really good. In fact, it may not even be noticeable, especially compared to the surrounding structures.

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This isn’t a house I’d personally care to make a big investment in. It’s already been added on to once, and as you can see the result is a bit of a kludge. Now you’re proposing further major changes. Are they doable? Anything is doable if you’re willing to invest enough time and money. But here are some things to consider:

(1) What kind of footings do you have under the front of the house? This used to be a porch; typically porch footings aren’t designed to bear much weight. If you have a room spanning the newer and original parts of the house, the two halves may settle (or more likely, have already settled) at different rates, giving you a pronounced dip in the floor. My brother-in-law had a house with a room like that; you felt like you were walking down a hill when you went from one side of the room to the other. Drove me nuts. Yes, you can level out flooring, but it’s a pain, and who’s to say you won’t have continued settlement? As I say, it depends on the footings.

(2) Creating your 8x12 room is going to require you to move a bearing wall (the original exterior house wall). It’s only an 8-foot span so this is definitely doable, but somebody is going to have to give some thought to how you’re going to carry the weight of the house.

(3) What are you figuring to put in this 8x12 room? This is a rather inconvenient size from the standpoint of furniture layout. I see rooms like this all the time in remodeled houses and they always strike me as cramped and awkward.

(4) I don’t have a clear sense of the floor plan, but from what you say I have to wonder how this thing is going to lay out, traffic patterns, etc. When my brother remodeled - and he spent some serious money - he wound up with several oddball spaces that he can’t really use for much. He’s happy, and it’s his house, but it’s the kind of thing that bugs me.

(5) To be blunt, I think if you add a big dormer across the back the house is going to look really goofy.

(6) Looked at from the front, the house is now symmetrical. If I understand what you’re saying, you’re proposing to have a porch for two thirds of the width, with a room filling the remaining third. You’ll lose the symmetry, and with that big centered dormer above … I gotta tell you, the thought makes me cringe.

In short, this is not something I’d do. If the economy hadn’t gone south I’d say you’re close to teardown land. As it is I’d keep looking. If you do decide to go ahead, you definitely want to get an architect involved. Also, no way is this something you’re going to get done in 3-4 weeks.

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Thanks Ed. Tho your structural concerns give me far more pause than aesthetic.

This isn’t a house I’d personally care to make a big investment in. It’s already been added on to once, and as you can see the result is a bit of a kludge.

Well, the only addition so far has been to enclose the porch. I some respects, what i propose would undo what was previously done.

(1) What kind of footings do you have under the front of the house? This used to be a porch; typically porch footings aren’t designed to bear much weight. If you have a room spanning the newer and original parts of the house . . .

Definitely crucial question. One other possibility would be to run the new room parallel with the front of the house, either 10-12’ of the 25’ width.

(2) - same as above - definitely need opinions as to the feasibility/cost.

*(3) What are you figuring to put in this 8x12 room? *

With our kids in college, we would like the possibility for 4 bedrooms, at least until we are reasonably sure they will not regularly be coming home for breaks and such. So I envisioned this room as opening onto the LR - maybe with french or pocket doors. We could put a daybed and armoire in there for the short run for someone to use as sleeping space. Then when the kids were gone, we could use it as a sitting room off of the LR.

*(4) I don’t have a clear sense of the floor plan, but from what you say I have to wonder how this thing is going to lay out, traffic patterns, etc. *

The sense I’m thinking of is a la Susan Susanka (sp?) - create the impression/possibility of privace/togetherness. So I like areas that flow into each other, but leave the possibility to break up sight lines. But as you say, what works for us may very well not work for everyone.

(5) To be blunt, I think if you add a big dormer across the back the house is going to look really goofy.

Your opinion. I’ve seen many houses like this or bungalows, where the rear roofline is at a less severe angle than the front. To my eyes if done properly that need look neither added on or unattractive.

(6) Looked at from the front, the house is now symmetrical. If I understand what you’re saying, you’re proposing to have a porch for two thirds of the width, with a room filling the remaining third. You’ll lose the symmetry, and with that big centered dormer above … I gotta tell you, the thought makes me cringe.

Again, I’ve seen many a bungalows/cottages with centered front upstairs dormers and front porches spanning 1/3, 1/2, or 2/3 of the width. I think this is definitely a matter of getting the proportions correct, but I see no reason why this should be beyond the ability of a skilled designer.

Not trying to argue - instead, giving serious consideration and responding to your observations. Definitely not going to do any serious looking until we have our house listed, and no offers until ours is under contract. I’ve been checking out the on-line sites for a year or so, and one thing I’m confident is that at any time there are a couple of houses we would be comfortable with either on the market or soon to be.

Seriously, I suspect my wife would likely nix this particular house unless we could get it for an absolute steal. But I suspect the lot itself would probably run $250k.

Please keep the ideas coming.

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I was thinking about this and realized that the standard Chicago bungalow is asymmetrical with a centered dormer upstairs. (Grew up in one myself on the 3100 block of Mango.) I have seen many many homes in this style where the open front porch is wider than in the pictures I post. In fact, there is one about a block away from the house I am discussing.

Perhaps it looks best if 1/2 is open and 1/2 is enclosed, or if the demarcation is immediately below one edge of the dormer. But like I said, I would look to a pro to suggest pleasing dimensions.

I’m not trying to be argumentative - just trying to suss out the reasons for your reaction to figure out why I feel differently.

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Second home down on this page may be a better example, and is similar to what I envisioned. Thoughts?

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It occurs to me that my reply above may have seemed a little brusque. My apologies if so.

You’re quite right that a lot of this is a matter of aesthetics. If you’ve seen examples of a big rear dormer that look fine to you, I won’t argue. Let me say a thing or two about symmetry, though.

You’re quite right that Chicago bungalows, and for that matter most houses (including mine), aren’t symmetrical and look none the worse for it. In particular, I agree that the remodeled home you linked to is a handsome piece of work. However, I point out that:

  1. Major elements in this house ARE symmetrical, namely the dormer, roof, front door, entry pillars, and steps. The use of white trim against the dark background makes these elements really pop - your first thought is that the house is symmetrical. What’s more, the asymmetrical parts are balanced - the porch void and balustrade on the left play nicely off the windows and the band of siding on the right.

  2. In contrast, if I understand you correctly, you’re proposing to put the entrance of your house on the left. Imagine how the blue house would look if the front door, pillars, steps, etc., were shifted to the left. In my humble opinion it would look pretty odd.

  3. Note that the dormer on your house is much larger in relationship to the roof than the one on the blue house. It’s a dominating - maybe too dominating - feature. IMO, you mess with the symmetry this imposes at your peril.

This isn’t to say you couldn’t do something along the lines you propose and have it come out looking OK. I do think you want the entry in the center, but more important I would absolutely want to have an architect do some drawings rather than just turn the job over to a contractor and hope for the best. Happy to give you the name of my guy if you’re interested.

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No apologies needed. Right now this idea is just that, so I really appreciate hearing as many opinions as I can get. I’m perfectly capable of rejecting those opinions I want to disagree with! :stuck_out_tongue:

Remodeling is such a curious thing. You can see 2 different houses that had essentially the same things done to them, but if the proportions or detailing are a little different, one can look like a seamless showplace, while the other is a hodge-podge.

I know my local library has a number of books on bungalows/cottages/farmhouses - our preferred style. I’ll look through them to get some ideas of what we personally prefer. I know I have seen a number of homes that have a partial rather than full front porch. I will have to see if any of them have off-center entries, and how I like them. Another interesting thing would be to see how this house was originally set up. The listing site has a picture of the enclosed front porch that appears to have 2 doors and a window in the original exterior wall - door left, door center, window right. So maybe a center door would be an option. Over the years I have realized that I personally tend to favor some degree of asymmetry. But when discusing something as valuable as a house, I wouldn’t want to exercise my personal quirk in an overly blatant manner.

If we move further along these lines I’d very much appreciate getting your guy’s info. I was wondering about the relative merits of getting an architect as opposed to a design/build firm. What are your thoughts? Are you able to ballpark how much an architect charges?

If I were thinking of rehabbing an old home I would want to do a pre-purchase walk-through with a contractor, engineer, architect, or someone who could assess the existing structure and paint a broad picture as to what the structure would require and allow. What are your thoughts about this? There is a short list of reputable contractors who are active in my area. I was thinking of asking if one of them would do a walk-through with us, offer them a couple hundred $ which could be counted against any contract I might enter into with them, Or would you think an architect better for this sort of thing?

Like I said, I tink te biggest thing will be my wife and me getting on the same page. I think she wants something turn-key. We have lived in 2 nice but relatively non-descript houses for the past 20 years. I like the idea of getting something with the idea that we would customize it to our own tastes for the next portion of our lives. And tho I do not want home maintenance to be a second job, I am not opposed to the idea of it being a somewhat time-consuming hobby.

(Is it too late for me to take back the nasty things I said about this forum?) :o

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I presume you’re talking about someplace like Airoom. I talked with them once but we didn’t go that route. My guess is they’re a little cheaper than having a separate architect and contractor. The drawback of design/build, and IMO it’s not a trivial one, is that if you’re not happy with what the contractor is doing, you can’t go to the architect and expect an objective opinion. OTOH, no question, Airoom has done some nice looking jobs, some pretty large-scale. Worth talking to.

Varies widely depending on what you want the architect to do and how extensive the renovation is. My sister knew exactly what she wanted and basically just hired a draftsman to do a drawing she could hand the contractor - she paid $600 (this was in the mid 90s). Some aspects of her house could have used a little further study, I think. When we did the initial work on our house, a gut rehab, we paid about $20K, which may sound steep but we were doing major structural work, total reconstruction of the rear of the house, rebuilt roofline, etc. - total cost ~$350K, in light of which the architect’s fee was reasonable. Just now we got a permit for some fairly extensive work, including fire exits and whatnot; the architects had to go down to the city (this is Chicago, remember) and see what the building dept. would allow us to do - our approach was a little unorthodox. Wound up with a $7K bill, which I initially thought was high, but again this was a complicated job that I would have hated to shepherd through the permit process alone. The total cost of the job is going to be around $75K, so again not out of line. A fairly common practice, I believe, is to charge 15% or so of the cost of the job, although we never did it that way.

A walk-through is definitely smart, particularly since you’ve got some potential structural issues. People often use contractors for this purpose but I’d prefer a good architect and having both is better yet - that’s what I usually do. I’ve worked with my guys for years so they don’t charge me extra for site visits. One thing to be aware of is that a pre-purchase home inspection and a contractor inspection are really two different things - a home inspector will find all kinds of little stuff that you may want to have the seller fix before you buy, whereas a contractor will be looking more at the big picture.

I guarantee your wife isn’t going to see it that way. A drawn-out remodeling project can be unbelievably stressful as far as your marriage is concerned.

Heh. Figured you might see where it had its points.

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If you get a chance, I was hoping you would take a look at a couple of other pics which kind of illustrate the things I was thinking about re: the front of this house.

I would appreciate your thoughts as you seem to have a good eye to go along with your strong opinions.

This house suggests the asymmetrical look I was suggesting. The front is divided in 1/2 beneath a large center dormer, with the entry door and porch on the left, and interior room on the right. This may not be my absolutely favorite choice if I were designing and building from scratch, but it doesn’t exactly make me want to puke. What say you?

This is a more symmetrical look, with the steps and entry door centered beneath the dormer. Do you feel this look is significantly more attractive than the first?

I would far prefer to get something solid and turnkey, but it seems to me we could get so much closer to what we really want for several hundreds of $K less with a rehab along these lines, if not this particular property. My wife really doesn’t want to live through construction - or move twice. But when I crunch the numbers rehab just seems so much more affordable. Oh well. It’s only money. And who really wants to retire anyway! :stuck_out_tongue:

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The basic design is unobjectionable - as you know bungalows like this are extremely common in the Chicago area. The aluminum siding is pretty hideous but that’s a detail that could be fixed relatively cheaply. The design is asymmetrical, as most Chicago bungalows are, but it works fine. The elements are nicely scaled relative to one another and well balanced; there’s a sort of triangle thing going on with the dormer, entry door and windows at the vertices. Nothing spectacular, but no, it doesn’t make you want to puke.

This is an interesting comparison. The basic design is much more striking than the first house, largely because of the symmetry and the bold horizontals. What bugs me are the details. I just can’t get past the foundation stone. It totally dominates the composition, and there’s really nothing you can do about it. So if your point is, asymmetry isn’t inherently bad and a symmetrical house isn’t necessarily good, I can’t argue you with you. Nonetheless, I also think that if the stonework had been handled better, the second house could have been a real showplace, whereas the first one is pretty ordinary.

Sure, but if your wife really isn’t sold on this, you’re going to regret it. Ideally you want something that works for both of you - done enough so she can decorate and not have to worry about constant construction chaos, but needs enough fixing up to keep you happy. If you’re talking massive reconstruction you might enjoy it but your wife sure won’t. And with that I’ll butt out, since I’m telling you things you already know.

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Sorry if I was unclear - that wasn’t my point. I was aware of - and agree with you - that the width/horizontal elements of #2 are inherently more attractive than #1, and I think #2’s stonework is pretty hideous. I was simply trying to identify on-line pics of homes that were symmetrical and asymmetrical, and those were the best I came up with in a somewhat limited search.

Our library has a little book called something like “200 bungalows.” All it is is exterior pictures of a couple hundred bungalows. Really good to flip through and see what aspects appeal to you.

Long talk this a.m. Seems most likely we aren’t going to make any move for at least a little while. Thanks.

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I’m sure you are no longer interested - and I doubt this will ever happen. But this might give a sense of what I had envisioned approximating down the line.

Admitedly, this house is more horizontal than the one I previously linked.

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Sorry to be so long in replying, I was out of town for a week. I think the house in the link above is attractive, although some of the details bug me - for example, the front steps have a pillar on one side and a newel post on the other. Probably I wouldn’t notice if they were made of wood and unobtrusive, but as it is they’re massive and made of brick, so more in your face. Otherwise, though, this house benefits from the same horizontal sweep seen in the second house you cited a few posts up. I don’t know the age or provenance of this house and realize it’s in Wisconsin, but it’s more in the tradition of California bungalows, which are often larger and more upscale than the Chicago variety. The pillars notwithstanding, the dominant elements here are clearly the roof and dormer. How this treatment would look if imposed on the first house you cited is hard to say; the roof of the first house is pitched more steeply and you lose some of the horizontality.

All of this is moot if you’ve agreed you’re not going anywhere, but it’s always fun talking about old houses.

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Last Sunday we looked at a few open houses. Man, there couldn’t be anything better at convincing us how much we like our current house! It really is amazing how much coin people want for goofy houses. And when people add on/remodel without appearing to give any thought to how the floorplan will flow, or how their addition will fit in with existing elements.

There had been an Open House planned for the 1st house I linked, but when we drove by there was no sign, and a work van in the driveway. Asked a couple of guys near the van if they were the owners, they said “No.” Asked them if they knew about the open house, they said it had been canceled. Asked them why, and they had no idea.

I’m guessing that with all the snowmelt we had on Saturday the place took on water.

But the bottomline is that we are living in a house that is paid for and really suits our needs well, tho it is “boring” and on a busier street than we’d like. With 3 kids in college next year and our savings having taken a hit, we are definitely better off saving the costs of relocation. Moreover, if we downsize now it could cramp our style over the next 3-5 years, and if we move into another large home, it may be too big at the end of that same time.

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