Is this use of 'penultimate' correct?

[pulykamell]

@gnoitall

Because correctness of usage and meaning are a matter of mob rule nowadays.

While the misuse of “penultimate” does stick in my craw, usage and meaning being a matter of “mob rule” is historically how language has been. Nothing “nowadays” about it. But that’s a discussion that’s been hashed out in literally about seventy billion SD threads…

[beowulff]

@pulykamell

while the misuse of “penultimate” does stick in my craw, usage and meaning being a matter of “mob rule” is historically how language has been. Nothing “nowadays” about it. But that’s a discussion that’s been hashed out in literally about seventy billion sd threads…

iswydt

[Chessic_Sense]

@begbert2

As I understand it penultimate doesn’t mean “second best” or even “second from the start”, it means “second from the end”. “The ultimate weapon” doesn’t actually mean the best weapon, it means the last weapon - the one that once you use it, there will be no more fighting at all.

So when you reach the penultimate item on the list of things to deal with you’ve almost finished fixing everything and are pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I disagree. It’s the ultimate weapon because it’s at the (top) end of the quality meter. There’s nothing beyond it. It’s the edge, the limit, the stopping point, the terminal node on the chain of weapon quality.

[Little_Nemo]

@Shodan

Among our chief tactics are, such diverse elements as safety, accuracy, effectiveness, being developed as quickly as reasonably practicable, and nice, red uniforms.

Regards,
Michaelangelo

All right, it’s the soft cushions for you then.

[Little_Nemo]

@begbert2

As I understand it penultimate doesn’t mean “second best” or even “second from the start”, it means “second from the end”. “The ultimate weapon” doesn’t actually mean the best weapon, it means the last weapon - the one that once you use it, there will be no more fighting at all.

So when you reach the penultimate item on the list of things to deal with you’ve almost finished fixing everything and are pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I can accept this usage as a valid metaphor. If I describe the Holocaust as the ultimate war crime, I’m not saying it was the last war crime to be committed chronologically. I’m saying that if you ranked war crimes from least terrible to most terrible, the Holocaust would be the most terrible one and would therefore be the last one on the list. Which would make it the ultimate war crime on my metaphorical list.

[Bullitt]

@Little_Nemo

Forepropreantepenultimate, of course.

And then there’s supraforepropreantepenultimate, apparently.

[Bullitt]

I’m settling on…

Our first and foremost goal is for these products to be safe, accurate, and effective. Secondarily, we will develop them as quickly as possible.

That might be the ultimate phrasing.

[Steven_Maven]

@Bullitt

I am an engineer, not a writer, and yet I find myself responsible for writing an SOP.

This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff.

[Bullitt]

@Steven_Maven

This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff.

Yes I may need professional help. But not with just writing.

Thanks, but actually we’re a small company and we don’t have any professional writers. We contract out for that.

[Mangetout]

@begbert2

As I understand it penultimate doesn’t mean “second best” or even “second from the start”, it means “second from the end”. “The ultimate weapon” doesn’t actually mean the best weapon, it means the last weapon - the one that once you use it, there will be no more fighting at all.

So when you reach the penultimate item on the list of things to deal with you’ve almo;;t finished fixing everything and are pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel.

@Chessic_Sense

I disagree. It’s the ultimate weapon because it’s at the (top) end of the quality meter. There’s nothing beyond it. It’s the edge, the limit, the stopping point, the terminal node on the chain of weapon quality.

‘Ultimate’ has come to also mean ‘best’ for the same reason that ‘pinnacle’ has - insofar as development of any art or science is seen as a journey of improvement, the ‘ultimate’ product of any discipline is implied to be the best possible product - no further progress in improvement is possible - the best has been achieved.

So ultimate does mean last, but also can mean best. Penultimate does not seem to have acquired the meaning ‘second best’ however.

[CookingWithGas]

@Steven_Maven

This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff.

Ever since Microsoft Word, engineers don’t need tech writers anymore.

[Bullitt]

@CookingWithGas

Ever since Microsoft Word, engineers don’t need tech writers anymore.

Why is that?

[TriPolar]

If you don’t do what I want now I’m going to threaten you one more time.
^^ Is that a penultimatum?

[CookingWithGas]

@Bullitt

Why is that?

It was sarcastic. Someone figured that now that engineers had a tool to write their own documents, it was no longer necessary to hire people who actually knew how to write. I have been in the software industry for 40 years and the documentation I’ve seen engineers write in the last 30 is mostly shit.

[Mangetout]

Has anyone got a link to an example in the wild of someone using penultimate where they mean ‘better than ultimate’?

I’ve heard of it, and I think I’ve probably encountered it, but I can’t think of a specific case.

[Bullitt]

@CookingWithGas

It was sarcastic. Someone figured that now that engineers had a tool to write their own documents, it was no longer necessary to hire people who actually knew how to write. I have been in the software industry for 40 years and the documentation I’ve seen engineers write in the last 30 is mostly shit.

OK, and generally I agree about what engineers typically write. I think the docs I’ve written are pretty good, and I try to write well. I just don’t enjoy it. And I’ve never used penultimate before, and I never will.

[pulykamell]

@Mangetout

Has anyone got a link to an example in the wild of someone using penultimate where they mean ‘better than ultimate’?

I’ve heard of it, and I think I’ve probably encountered it, but I can’t think of a specific case.

Yes. Post #31 in this thread. Youtube link from 1996, and post (and following posts) describing how this was the first time I noticed it.

ETA: This is the link again. I commented that it was the first time I noticed but I’m pretty confident it’s been misused for some time before then. At least one reply has indicated that that supposition is the case.

[Muffin]

@Steven_Maven

This is not what you asked, but your company should have a professional Technical Writer on the staff.

You called?
Do not use big words or less common words, such as penultimate or practicable.

The products must be safe, accurate, and effective. Development should be rapid without sacrificing quality.

[Mangetout]

@pulykamell

Yes. Post #31 in this thread. Youtube link from 1996, and post (and following posts) describing how this was the first time I noticed it.

ETA: This is the link again. I commented that it was the first time I noticed but I’m pretty confident it’s been misused for some time before then. At least one reply has indicated that that supposition is the case.

Thanks - sorry, I missed that upthread.

[Bullitt]

@Muffin

You called?
Do not use big words or less common words, such as penultimate or practicable.

The products must be safe, accurate, and effective. Development should be rapid without sacrificing quality.

Thank you — I like it.