I find it in questionable taste, because it’s a corruption of a racist catchphrase. In the 1940’s, Australia had a “White Australia” policy - we encouraged white emigration while blocking Asian people from coming here. Arthur Caldwell is still famous for the speech he made in parliment when he said “Two wongs don’t make a white”. My Grandfather is now 84 years old and his views are considered politically incorrect, and he has said the same thing when we’ve been discussing Asian immigration. I would be horrified if I saw that slogan on a t-shirt because of the racist connections it brings to mind.
Well, in your opinion. And what “strong historical associations”, with what “terrible acts”? I don’t recall reading about the Pizza Dojo Massacre in school. (I still want that shirt, dammit.)
Lived what? Life as a UCLA student growing up well fed and well educated in Southern California, as the son or daugher of successful immigrant parents? Oh, the horror!
Ah, “it’s an Asian thing, you wouldn’t understand”. Right. Like I said, if you want to get even with me, call me a mick. You’re free to call me a pugnacious leprauchan, and I won’t forbid you the use of the image because I claim it as “funny and subversive” within my cloistered little group of campus political activists. The Irish are as much an ethnic group as the Chinese in the context of this country, and can you can probably make fun of them much more easily. We’re quite generous in that way. Just smile when you do it.
Doghouse Reilly:
Except for the ones, for instance, whose ancestors were kidnapped/lied to and brought to America to be used for slave labor after the Emancipation Proclamation ended black slavery. Try learning some history before you go around talking about what group counts as a “real” minority.
During the 1800s when China was being thoroughly dominated by American powers, American companies offered “work opportunities” in America. They were promised that they would become rich overnight once they reached America. Instead they were kept as slaves illegally; that is, they lived where the company said, ate when the company said, did whatever they were told or faced punishment and could not leave. Sometimes people were kidnapped, too. The Western railroads were built largely by Chinese slave labor.
Not to mention points other people have already made about naturalization, concentration camps and similar.
The worst bit is that you feel justified in somehow deciding what minorities “deserve” to be recognized as oppressed. In my hometown in Indiana there was ONE Asian in the entire community, and every single day some one made a joke about her Asianess. I had a guy in my high school tell me, “All Chinese women are fucking ugly.” (He meant Asians in general) And plenty of Asians are hated because they do well in school, thanks to the “positive” stereotype that Asians are smarter. Anti-Asian racism exists.
–John
This is racism, pure and simple. You’re using a generalization from a stereotype to attack a racial group. You’re attacking them by trying to say that you know better than actual Asians whether or not Asians are a “real” minority.
This is just as racist as if we were discussing the difficulty of being black in America and you said, “Lived what? Life as a drug dealer growing up drinking 40s in Compton, as the son or daugher of some Welfare queen?”
They weren’t placed in internment camps, but there was a good deal of harassment and “anti-German hysteria” going on at the time that had a devastating impact on German culture in this country. From this page I found on the Federation of American Scientists web site:
Maybe people are free to sell stuff, have a sense of humor, and exercise their freedom of speech without living in fear of the self-appointed arbiters of victimhood.
On second thought, no, they aren’t, are they?
Did you bother to read my earlier comments about the very real suffering of black people in this country? My whole point was that the horrific conditions and events blacks have lived through up until the present day make the ruckus over these shirts look pretty damn ridiculous.
It’s a little sad, and extremely childish when you find yourself unable to address my ideas and resort to ad hominem attacks and smears based on what you believe “people like you” would say. I really hope you can show better form than that in the future.
ON THE OTHER HAND, **cazzle** brings up a very strong counterpoint. If the "two wongs" thing really was an anti-Asian political slogan in Australia, then I could definitely see how that particular shirt would touch a real raw nerve among ordinary people. But how many protestors in the US have this bit of Australian history in mind when they object to the shirts?cazzle, obviously if in Australia the phrase has a certain negative history and connotation, then it would be offensive and very inappropriate. If I did not know it but someone told me it had a similar history or connotation in California, then, obviously, I would see things differently, but it is not the case AFAIK.
I am also amused by those who say it is OK for Asians to wear and sell those Tshirts. So, if i wear it with a note saying I bought it from an Asian vendor and my best friend is Asian would that make it ok?
My test is simple. If the person saying or doing something is doing it with the intent of being offensive or of just not caring if he might be offensive, then, obviously, it is rude and not acceptable. But if there is no intention to offend I just can’t see why people should get so worked up about things.
hazel-rah, my friend is very far from being a doormat. She is an extremely intelligent university professor and I have always admired her ability to be balanced. She is way ahead of most people I know in many senses. The only comparison I can think of is that maybe you would consider a guy who was not offended by some insulting words and walked away from a bar brawl, maybe you would consider him a doormat too while I would find that admirable.
And how many of these “slaves” have any connection whatsoever with Asians living in the US today? If I recall correctly, they weren’t allowed to settle down here; and in any case the majority of Asians living in the US today have American roots exending back only a couple of generations at most–not back to the time of the railroads. Can any Asians in America today look back and say, “my ancestor was a slave”, even if your assertion is true?
You know it’s funny, when I was associating with campus political groups back in the late 80s/early 90s, the Chinese laborers were being touted as heroes who came to the US voluntarily and made tremendous contributions to the US railroads and then suffered the great indignity of (1) not being allowed to settle here and (2) not being recognized in history books. Funny how the party line shifts over time. In any case, I think you’ve got hold of a very (1) recent and (2) politically slanted interpretation of history there, Yue Han.
I’m sorry there were so many jerks in your home town, and I don’t doubt that anti-Asian racism does indeed exist. But are these shirts an example of it? My sense is that they are not. So far, I feel that only cazzle has come up with a good argument to the contrary.
And as for my example of a UCLA student growing up in Southern California–wipe the froth from your computer screen, because it was only a (somewhat facetious) example. But wouldn’t you acknowledge that a large proportion of American Born Chinese grow up in similarly comfortable circumstances–much more so than American blacks? I don’t see every tenth Chinese male spending time in prison (or whatever proportion it is, you know what I mean.) You have yet to address this point–that, by and large, an American Born Chinese on his or her worst day suffers nothing approaching what your average black male or female goes through in this country.
BTW, this sounds like a good synopsis of Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle. Which had nothing to do with Chinese immigrants.
Doghouse Reilly: If you feel that I have sidestepped a question of yours feel free to ask again. In your scattered arguments, it’s very possible that I missed one of your questions.
-
Let me say this again, because you are not getting. Asians who are offended by the shirts don’t have to justify why they are offended.
-
When you heard the use of the phrase “Two Wongs don’t make a White”, the first questions out of your mouth, was if the protester know of it’s use. The first question out of my mouth was did A&F know of it’s use.
Doghouse Reilly, you have got to clarify your position here because you don’t seem to be making any sense to me. What does the comparative suffering of African Americans and Asian Americans have to do with anything? In what way does the abuse and persecution of German Americans during the first world war excuse insulting behavior toward Asian Americans today?
Where I live, Asian Americans are confronted with daily abuse, ranging from racist myths (my dog is missing…the family down the street must have eaten it) to beatings. The Irish don’t currently have this problem, so it is understandable that being called a “mick” doesn’t offend you. If, however, you were a fraction as knowledgeable about your heritage as you are proud, you would know that at the turn of the century the Irish faced similarly insulting myths and beatings. At the time, calling an Irish American a “mick” was taken very seriously. Irish Americans worked hard to build political power and Irish American leaders were very sensitive to negative stereotypes. They have been rewarded with almost universal acceptance and affection. Would you deny Asian American the right to the same path taken by your ancestors?
I’m Asian and I wasn’t really outraged at it. But I live in Hawaii where there are so many ethnicities thrown together that we have comedians who make a living from poking fun at each and every ethnicity here. It’s much more relaxed here, I’m wondering if something like that would have flown under the radar here…maybe, maybe not.
I suppose if I lived on the mainland and was truly a minority in my surroundings, I would be annoyed, but not so much to bitch about it.
I find that the people who are the least understanding why minorities get upset are the ones who are least discriminated against (i.e the majority).
…and Uncle Sam, a racist caricature? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
oops, sorry for not understanding.
An interesting point to add to this is the context. For a parallel, look at the N word among African-Americans. Generally, it is a term of endearment, humor and solidarity when an African American says it to another. The term is being mocked in that context. Look for a white guy who says the same word to an African-American, and you might notice a different reaction. The word carries different connotations and baggage when used in the latter context, even if it was not meant to.
I believe these shirts are the same way. While I could see an Asian group making these shirts and wearing them as a joke to poke fun at themselves, I see a difference in suburban white teenagers (The A&F demographic) wearing the same shirts. Someone brought up the Fightin’ Whites shirt and said they would wear it with pride. It is making fun of your own ethnicity. Would you wear a shirt that was an African American, Latino or Asian stereotype and wear it for the same reason of making fun of the ethnicity? I see that membership in the minority or majority allows you to make fun of the group you are part of, otherwise someone can and will take offense.
As an example, I could see someone of Middle Eastern decent wearing a shirt billing “Ahmed’s Taxi Service” with a turbaned bearded Arabic man. They are poking fun at the stereotype of the ethnicity they are part of. But on a suburban teen wearing that same shirt, I would think the person was just a tad crass or insensitive.
Hell, they’re just shirts. If you wanna buy em, go ahead. Personally I hate A&F though.
I guess the discussion took on a life of its own, but it seems to have all started when I asserted that with the exception of blacks and Indians for the most part, all other ethnic groups in the US have gone through much the same experiences and seem to have come through it all OK. And that Asians already enjoy the same assimilated status as the other ethnic groups around us–but more on this at the end of this note.
Regarding our discussion of blacks, and how their experience differs from Asians: I would argue that African Americans are a very significant exception to the general American experience, with a much different (and altogether much sorrier) experience. So I asserted–and I would still assert–that saying the T-shirts in question are equivalent to “a big-lipped Sambo character” (as archmichael indicated) is at best a severe misrepresentation–one insulting to (if you think about it) Asians and blacks alike.
Maybe this is just my own theory, but I feel that there is a big dividing line in the American experience between blacks and Indians on the one hand, and most or all other ethnic groups on the other. In short, the first two groups are the only two who came to America altogether unwillingly (Yue Han’s historical interpretations notwithstanding), and we are still living with the consequences centuries later.
I intended to argue that Asians fall into the latter, happier camp: groups that come here willingly, face some initial hardships, and then find themselves more or less assimilated into the mainstream. Once that assimilation happens, the ethnic groups in question often turn back to myths and stereotypes as a mark of pride and distinction–because they’re now harmless, if not largely meaningless.
So you raise an interesting point, ignatzmouse, on where Asian communities find themselves in this process. If I’ve erred in this debate, I’d concede that it’s in assuming that the assimilation and acceptance process is further along than it really is, and Asians are still in that stage where stereotypes and myths still carry meaning and the power to hurt.
The thing is, though, the “Asian” community is already very fragmented to begin with, such that I wonder whether they ought to be lumped into one “community” at all. So I think you and I could both be right. That is, among my sizable group of (well-assimilated?) Chinese American acquaintances, I can see that the T-shirts don’t have much power to hurt and can even be appreciated as humorous, much as I appreciate the “Fightin’ Whities” T-shirt. But in your neighborhood, the Asians you encounter (Korean? Vietnamese?) seem to fall into a different socioeconomic group, as do their neighbors. So they might see these T-shirts in a much different light than my Chinese friends would.
Does that clarify my stance?
You must realize, almost every single asian child growing up has had and experienced sterotyped teasing and perhaps racism on numerous occasions.
Lets face it, kids don’t see a black person and comment on his or her ethnic features such as “Why is your skin so dark” or “Your lips are unusually thick compared to mine”. You don’t see kids commenting on hispanic features either. But all of the “slanted eye” “short stature” “wok and rice eating” are all too common. With this being said, it is very easy for many asians to be offended by those shirts, OR AT THE LEAST, uncomfortable with them. And how about the jokes on asian-english dialect…that is the most commonly exploited prejudice among all. An immigrant from Europe/Africa/Latin countries does not endure the same ridicule.
You might as well forget your little irish bashing attempts to justify yourself. You don’t walk down the street looking at people and categorizing them as white white white black asian black asian white white ahhh an irish. Everyone considers all europeans as white. Nuff said. What is amazing is that when whites run out of people to ridicule, they often turn on themselves and find the next level of minorities among themselves. You may be comfortable now, but you’re not far from being the next “asians” yourself. Only then will you or anyone else like you truly understand.
As for the UCLA, rich parent immigrants statement, you are implying that asian americans shouldn’t be offended because of this? Is that jealousy I sense? I think someone should be offended if they wish, by those superficial branded A&F t-shirts f they please, no matter if they’re parents were non-lazy, intelligent, and competent and produced a wealthy lifestyle.
I am indifferent and could care less about the buddha thing, but boy I would loved to see Jesus Christ depicted in a humerous racial way.
I think you’re a little confused, SoulSearcher. At least I am after reading your post.
Anyway, as for your wish to see Jesus Christ depicted in a humorous racial way, well, is this close enough? Sorry, but I don’t know the race of the urinator.
I do not think this is what is being said. Posters are saying let an ethnic group be offended, it is not your place to say their reasons for being offended are not valid. Nor is it your place to say that their suffering was less than another ethnic minority, and therefore they do not qualify. No one in this thread is trying to have a contest over which ethnic minority in the US have won the suffering sweepstakes.
In this thread, more than once you said “call me a Mick, but you better smile” with an implied or else what? I am curious here. If I call you a mick and do not smile, then it suddenly becomes a derogatory term or fighting words or what? So please clarify, mick with a smile is okay, mick without a smile is not okay. Is this generally true for all Americans of Irish extraction? Can I tell you that you have no right to be offended if I call you a mick and do not smile?
The other thing you are missing is that in the US, Asians (if there is such a thing as a pan-Asian group) are easily identifiable as being part of an ethnic minority. Americans of white European decent are not identifiable except as part of the ethnic majority in the US.
There are plenty of racists in the US that don’t care where you are from. If you are not white, then you are a target.
IMHO the Jesus Christ picture is depicted in a scatalogical way, and not a racist way. The humor inherent is up for debate, but while I am not offended, I certainly fail to see any humor there.
ChinaGuy :
>> Posters are saying let an ethnic group be offended, it is not your place to say their reasons for being offended are not valid
LolaBaby:
>> Uncle Sam, a racist caricature? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>> oops, sorry for not understanding.
Exactly my point. Let an ethnic group be offended if they wish. Let the others not have to understand or share why they are offended. I am sorry but I do not consider it my first duty in life to bend over backwards trying to understand and share the insecurities of every person or group out there. I am not denying anybody’s right to be offended by whatever they want as long as they do not deny me the right to think they are stupid for being offended so easily. Not to mention I do not think the protesters speak for all or even a majority of Asians. Who appointed them?
Conversely, I have the right to be offended by any depiction of white people I do not like and others (including whites) have the right to think I am an idiot.
David Letterman has those two (Pakistani?) guys from the store next door (I forget their names, but something like Mukbar and Sirajoule) come in and do stupid things. Well I remember some protests from some of their countrymen against Letterman because they had decided it was demeaning to their country and culture. Sorry, but I don’t get it. They go in there voluntarily and do some stupid things and have some fun and that means David Letterman is guilty of racism? To me it seems quite the contrary. You can’t win for losing. If he didn’t invite people like that he would be accused of racism too.
BTW, he often does jokes about New York’s taxi drivers and their turbans and their lack of hygiene and I have not heard anyone complain (which does not mean it has not happened).
Also an interesting point is that there were Asians protesting the shirts.
Why are the shirts funny?
I think the shirts are unfunny and unoriginal (“Look, a joke about a Chinese guy named Wong who runs a laundry! That’s never been done before! God, it’s so funny! And the Wong/White thing? Brilliance!”). Believe me, I’ve heard that joke in one form or another all my life.
Which is the thing, really (at least for me). It’s not that the shirts themselves are particularly offensive, it’s just that they’re another in a long line of repetitive, quasi-offensive, “meant in jest” comments that I deal with fairly often. Like the joke about being related to the Korean restaurant owner who keeps the neighborhood cat or dog population down. Or the joke about being “the little half-breed” (I’m half-Japanese). Or the cracks about jap-bikes, and jap-cars, and eating rice, and fish heads, and bad driving, and thick glasses, and so on and so on and so on. It just gets really fucking old sometimes, that’s all.
So yeah, I won’t be protesting in the streets if someone wears one of those shirts. But it’s been done before.