Meeting of the PC Police- Crackers like Sailor not invited,

The BBQ Pit
1

Dear PC police:

For many years now we have been a cliché. People have used the name of our vast evil mind control organization in vain. While every attempt to change social mores away from acting like jerks to people has been labeled the work of the PC police, strangely no such organization existed. The time for this must end. No more shall using PC words be a simple tactic for newspapers, government papers etc. to find a non-offensive word for official use. No longer will PC be a euphemism for very liberal. From here on out, the PC police are real. If you are with us, pack your stun gun (after all, we want to take all the real weapons away from people protecting against tyranny) and we will start taking out people who say “Oriental” instead of Asian. That’s right, no more shall the general public say “Gee, isn’t Oriental kind of outdated and somewhat offensive”. Instead we shall create chaos. This is a time for us to create some more handi-capable people!

We all know that Sailor was right by stating “I think often women and minorities often bring the racial issue upon themselves” in this thread . That’s right! Racism (and sexism) is actually the fault of the victim. For example, the time that my high school counselor tried to force me to take home economics instead of advanced science because advanced science would be too “hard” for a 3.8 GPA girl like me…well…that was my fault. I was just being a little too sensitive that some guy was trying to subvert my goals. I am sure that counselor would have suggesting the same thing to my high school’s best and brightest boys. Or that time that stranger tried to reach under my shirt and grab my breast- that was my fault too. I guess I shouldn’t have been out in public. I guess it was my fault for being so sensitive about violations of my body. I am sure plenty of you have had occasions where institutionalized racism and sexism has hurt you, but in reality you were just being too sensitive. You see- Sailor is right. Racism and sexism is simply people being too sensitive. It doesn’t have real world ramifications that have very real and very devastating effects on people. If we just ignore it, it will all go away. In fact, if we had just ignored racism when there was slavery, it would have gone away. If we had ignored lynching, they would have gone away. If that pesky civil rights movement never happened, we would now be living in a world of complete racial harmony. Our purpose here is all wrong- we should be feeding ignorance- not fighting it.

But because we are the evil PC police, we shall ignore these noble truths. Instead we shall focus on causing pain and suffering by not letting people call each other “retards” and other, stronger terms. Let’s kick some European-American rear appendages!

2

Let me be the first to say it . . .

Cite, please?

:slight_smile:

3

First off - here’s a new link to the thread, since the one in the OP didn’t work for me.

Now then:

I read where he said that and I think you’re reading too much into his statement. I don’t see sailor claiming that all offenses are brought on by the victim, or even most of them. He said often. The examples you give are of course not your fault, but I think sailor was speaking of examples when say, a white cop gives a black man a ticket and the black man claims it was a case of racial profiling instead of a case of a person doing 80mph in a 60mph zone.

I don’t see were sailor said this. You inferred this from his statement. I also don’t see where you posted in that thread to ask sailor to clarify his statement, instead jumping straight to the Pit and singling him out.

**

Again, I don’t see where sailor said that racism and sexism only occurs in the mind of the victim. He said there are often cases where it is so. You have taken it to mean that he is denying the existence of racism and sexism.

I’ll give you a little example about people taking PC crap too far. Happened to me here at work. I work with a guy that stutters. One day, we were talking and a supervisor walked by as Robert just finished a sentence in which he, as usual, stuttered. I asked, “So what’s your handicap?”

That’s what the supervisor heard - me asking a stuttering person “What’s your handicap?” I was getting chewed out, not given a chance to explain or get a word in edgewise, while Robert is laughing and stuttering while trying to intervene on my behalf. You see, we were talking about golf. Mine was a perfectly innocent question in that context.

So yes, this PC stuff can be a little damned annoying when people are too sensitive.

To be honest, I don’t know why “Oriental” is considered poor form anyway. I’m ignorant in that respect. I use the term “Asian” only because for some reason which has never been explained to me, “Oriental” is wrong. Maybe instead of shouting at people for using non-PC term, we educate them on why those terms are not proper?

And as for the terms European-American, African-American, Asian-American, etc - those are all pet peeves of mine, since I believe by labeling ourselves we are in fact further dividing ourselves. If you are a citizen of the USA you are an American. End of story, no prefix needed.

I’m all for not offending anyone. I don’t want to be called “cracker” or “redneck” and so I don’t use intentionally derogatory terms towards anyone else. It’s a matter of common courtesy and respect for another human.

4

Crunchy, I love what you said and I love how you said it. Still, isn’t it so sad that you won’t define yourself as Assclown-American??? :smiley: :smiley:

Cartooniverse

5

I don’t feel it’s proper to define oneself as an Assclown-American until the nation of Assclownia wins its independence and is recognized as a sovereign nation.

6

I’ll recognize it as a sovereign nation, if that will help.

I’ve got a suspicion that if it ever does gain independence, it’ll have the largest population in the world.

7

Uh, just picking a little nit here - this is true, but the reverse is not true. Not all Americans are citizens of the U.S.A. Canadians, Mexicans, Greenlandians, etc. are all Americans, too. We live in North America, no? But you guys went and monopolized the name for all citizens of this continent. What you guys need is a name for citizens of your country that doesn’t take the continental name that belongs to all of us. How about United Statesians? USAns?

8

Let’s just change the name of the two continents. Let’s make them something catchy, like North and South Xbberuxkicxtyzziffum (Pronounced George).
[sub]Hopefully the sarcasm is evident[/sub]

9

Yeah, but when you guys get called Americans, you go apeshit. Honestly, we can’t win! :wink:

10

Hmmm. Well, we did in 5 pages of this thread in addition to the two pages in the one that was linked, and yet still there were people saying -paraphrasing (and **sailor ** was one) “I don’t understand why it’s considered rude, and since I don’t mean it in a rude way, why can’t they just not be so sensative” (sailor’s direct quote is "I think the speaker is the one who decides what he means and if no offense is meant, none should be taken. If you take offense when clearly none is intended, then you are oversensitive. " )

So, apparently intent is the only real issue? good to know, so, as long as I intend no harm, it won’t matter if I **cause ** harm. Got it. :rolleyes:

See, I believe that if you truly intend no harm, then you’ll take the steps necessary to insure to the best of your ability that you cause no harm.

11

Ah, that’s a good point. Okay, done picking nits now.

12

People who read the original thread know that I do not like sailor, but I would never call him a cracker. Of course according to some people who replied and according to himself, sailor would only be allowed to be offended if even sven INTENDED cracker to be an insult.

I stopped arguing with him when I realized he was one of these people who chime in on discussions simply to muddy the water. He claims to be for the use of ‘Asian’ over ‘Oriental’, but that he is only speaking as a devil’s advocate. However his arguments merely show that he is a master of sophistry.

I really don’t like all the dirty tricks he uses in debates. He picks and chooses points to respond to, usually not responding to points that go against him. He says inflammatory things, and puts a caveat that he doesn’t intend to offend anyone. This is the debate version of, “Don’t take this the wrong way, but you are a fucking asshole. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I said don’t take it the wrong way”

The thing that got me worked up was his intentional or unintentional blindness to racial issues.

To paraphrase: I recount some my personal experiences with racism. He replys that he lives in DC and that he has never heard of the instances I recounted. Since he has never heard of such a thing, he implies that I must either be making it up, or over-reacting to possibly innocuous situations. ruadh chimes in that he too lives in DC and has witnessed such instances. sailor continues find such things hard to believe, because all the ‘Asian’ women he dated never seemed sensitive to such issues.

He equates his being teased as a child for wearing glasses with my experiences with racism. He honestly see them as being the same. Of course a white child who wears glasses will be teased. The difference is that a black child with glasses will be teased for wearing glasses and being black.

13

Hmmm…While I don’t disagree with all of this, I do think that “intent” is a factor. Someone can say something out of ignorance, deeply ingrained habit, because in their neck of the woods everyone says it that way, for a lot of reasons. And their “intent” is 100% bonafide purely not meant to cause harm. And since what we are talking about here are words, and not things like physical harm, or financial harm, I think someone’s intent can be taken into more consideration. I sure as hell feel more inclined to give someone more latitude when all we are talking about is words. Words (even offensive ones) usually don’t upset me nearly as much as someone who (even though their “intent” was pure) causes me to lose lots of money, or causes me some sort of physical pain or damage.

Now, after being told over and over again that saying a certain thing is considered offensive, you’d think a person would get a clue. And I think I’d begin to wonder about someone who was stubborn about sticking to a term that everyone around them made VERY clear was causing “harm”. But it certainly is possible to be a bit out of the loop and not understand what the big deal is for quite a while. A former co-worker of mine (an older, rather sheltered type of person) used the word “cripple” to describe handicapped people. I could have decided to be deeply offended, seeing as I have a sister with several handicaps, but I considered the source, and was not offended. Her “intent” was not meant to offend, and that meant something to me.

14

IIRC Oriental refers to things, not people. An Oriental rug for example. The people of origin of said rug are Asian. So when you say Oriental you are calling them a thing. (I wonder if the Oriental chicken are offended) That is how I learned it at least.

15

Well that makes sense. Of course, I use the term “Asian” anyway, since I was told that is the less offensive term, but at least now I know why. Thanks.

I’ll check the other links where this was discussed once the board speeds up later tonight.

16

yosemite there’s a b-i-g difference to me between some one who is ignorant of current practices, and some one who is ** willfully, intentionally,** and proud of their ‘unPCness’ by insisting on using terms that have been identified as being considered crass, rude, offensive, insulting, painful, etc etc etc.

Did you read the thread??? It was full of ‘yea but’s’ yea, I hear you saying that you find the term offensive, butI still don’t intend it in an offensive manner, therefore, it’s not offensive.

For exampel, at this point, one would have to be under a very large rock to not know that, ‘nigger’ is generally considered to be offensive in mainstream, polite, public communication. It is nearing that point (if not there) for “oriental” vs. “Asian”

In that other thread, there were some postings about usage of the two words in main stream news media, and I found, for example, 14 in the past 30 days of the word “oriental” with nearly all being of the ‘oriental rug’ sort, and a couple hundred usages of the word “Asian”, with the first ones demonstrating “Asian workers” “Asian-American” etc.

Would I automatically lable some one a twit who used ‘oriental’ instead of Asian? not automatically. However, if after being hit in the face with the several pages of debate we’ve had, (as is happening) some one insisting that since they personally mean no offense with the term and they personally ** don’t see the harm/difference/offense, and (one/two however many) personal ** friends of theirs have said they don’t care, therefore anyone who does take offense is merely being thin skinned and over sensative - these people I think can have their motives examined. How can it not be offensive if you insist on it even after being told that it is considered offensive?

17

Wring: to quote my previous post:

Yeah, I see a distinction between someone who is stubborn about not using a certain phrase, after being told repeatedly that it is offensive.

But don’t underestimate many peoples’ obliviousness or ignorance. Trust me, I’ve met many of these people, and they truly have no clue. I am not talking about people who are being hit over the head, over and over, being told “THIS IS OFFENSIVE, STOP SAYING IT” and yet they still insist on saying it. I agree, that’s pretty shitty. I am talking about your average out-of-the-loop Joe living in Hooterville, who may not know that certain words (that everyone around them still use) are now considered “offensive” to much of society. And maybe they are told a few times, but dismiss it as excessive “political correctness”, because, once again, everyone in their circle still is using the term, and no one seems to mind.

This is somewhat of a hijack from the meat of this thread, I understand. But I just wanted to make that distinction. And I also want to make the distinction about why a person might not see what the big deal is in saying a word that has, (in all their limited, sheltered experience) been OK. They don’t see any physical or financial harm being done, and they just don’t get it. I’m not saying this is OK even if they are hammered again and again with the message that it is no longer OK. But I’m saying there are MANY people out there who just didn’t get the memo about which words are no longer considered appropriate. There are plenty of these kind of people still out there, ruffling feathers, while all the time truly having no unkind “intent”.

And, I might add, even though I haven’t used the word “Oriental” since who-knows-when, (instead choosing “Asian”) I had no idea that it was elevated to the same offensive level as “nigger”. No clue. And I’m only living under a small rock. There are people who are far more oblivious than me.

18

** and how many of them are posting here in GD?? (joking, really…)

I understand where you’re coming from, (hell, I’m related to a number of people who fit your description).

but what to do?

what not to do = hijack this thread further. :smiley:

19

Oh please you hyper sensitive drama queen! Cry me a river. How many of us in life have been emotionally bullied, dis-respected, under estimated, pigeonholed etc. because we were dealing with idiots, morons, cretins or just well meaning clueless wonders. I certainly have and I would venture to say there is not one person in the SDMB who has not been pooped on in some related fashion at some point in their lives.

Take that nasty little grudge you are nursing off of your breast and look around you. The world is full of mouth breathers content to judge people by cliches and stereotypes. You rail against this practice but you employ it vigorously in your ham handed swipes at sailor (AKA cracker man). Look at yourself in the mirror. You have become the counselor you remember with such bitterness.

20

Wring, I’m with you all the way on, “if one doesn’t intend offence, then don’t create offence.” The intent matters much less than how one’s comments affect others.

You may have noticed that PC rules are often out the window among close friends. That’s because there is genuine insight into intent. In intimate circumstances, one may say things that in a workplace, for example, are easily misconstrued. If you need to just “be yourself,” do it among people who know you well.

I heard something on The Connection (a show on NPR) last night that has some bearing on the present topic. The discussion centered on Dick Cheney, the busiest VP in history[sup]TM[/sup]. Sen Alan Simpson (a longtime friend of Cheney’s) was a guest on the show. During the conversation, the tenor of which was decidedly pro-Cheney, Cheney’s checkered past was mentioned. It seems that he failed out of college twice (Yale, both times), and was convicted twice for DWI. Sen Simpson gave frank accounts of his own, not insignificant, youthful indiscretions as well. But the moral was, you can do bad, but find the right path eventually, and you can attain high polital office (awww, isn’t that nice).

They were taking listeners’ questions and they get to this guy who introduces himself as a black lawyer. (Aside-the first thing the guy said was, “I’ve been listening to the elucidations on this program…”–God, that was painful. Why the fuck do people have to use big words that make you wince when used like that?) His point was that as an African-American, if he had fucked up like Cheney, Simpson, or Bush, he’d have been lucky to be a bus driver or janitor. These guys fuck up, reform, and then go on to be all that they can be.

IMHO, the lawyer’s point (while not backed with any attempt at data) deserves some consideration. But injecting it into the context of a talk show about Cheney’s role in the administration was ludicrous.

However, the melee which followed highlights both Wring’s point about intent being less meaningful than effect as well as the notion that it is sometimes impossible to foresee every effect of every statement on a wide public.

Sen Simpson believed, rightly IMHO, that one mistake shouldn’t ruin a person. One can even grow from these experiences. However, he has likely never faced the demons of racial discrimination, and was dismissive of the listener’s assertion that he didn’t deserve to be a US Senator.

What stunned me most about the exchange was my realization that here was this educated black man and myself listening to the same radio program. I listened and thought to myself, “boy, maybe the world isn’t so fucked up that perfection is an entry requirement.” While the lawyer thought to himself, “it works like that in the white world, not in mine.” That absolutely floored me. But it clearly demonstrates the power of experience to shape perception.

Racism is real. Sexism is real. There are people around you that are actual victims of these practices. And past victimization may color their current perceptions. They are not overly sensitive, although they may be wrong in their judgements about what you say. Still, the majority of people who misconstrue an innocent un-PC statement are good people who have come of age in a bad world.