The term 'Oriental' and racism in general

The BBQ Pit
1

I started to post this in the Playmate thread but it got too off topic and I think it deserves it’s own thread. I just had to get it off of my chest really quick.
From the Playmate thread here in the pit:

Or, what would be even better, people would stop being hurt by them.

I honestly can’t figure out why people get so worked up about words. I’ve been called ‘cracker’, ‘honkey’, ‘peckerwood’ by black people and only their intentions make me mad, not the actual words. I would be just as upset if they called me ‘#2 pencil’ with the same intent. Conversely, I wouldn’t be upset at all if they called me cracker, honky, or peckerwood in an offhand or humorous manner.

That said, I think both ‘Asian’ and ‘Oriental’ are misnomers. What term do the people who don’t like Oriental propose we use?

Also, I think it’s pretty fucked up that white people are immune to all this racial sensitivity that’s been going around. It’s perfectly acceptable to just call us white (and I agree it should be but it’s still hypocritical) and we’re the constant butt of jokes in movies, on tv, and especially by black stand up comedians. People like Fiestymongol are for the most part free to take stabs at “the man” all day and no one will say anything about it (yea yea I know he’s been pitted but I’m mostly talking about real life.) I would say a good 90-95% of the overall racism and 100% of the really nasty physical racism I’ve witnessed in my life has been against white people, but you never hear about any of this, and some people will consider you a racist for even bringing it up!

Has anybody seen that commercial where 3 or 4 black guys slam dunk a tortilla chip and then a white guy goes to do it and his feet barely leave the ground and they all say “Hey, I thought that was just a myth!” Who here thinks the commercial would’ve been aired if it showed a black guy eating fried chicken and watermelon with 4 white guys exclaiming “Hey, I thought that was just a myth!”?

I personally don’t think racism will end until we break down all the taboos. I think as long as it’s not directly harmful why should we place such a stigma on it? Why can’t we call our black friends our niggaz and they call us their crackas and we all have a good laugh? Why does it have to be such a no-no subject?

I really don’t know what I’m saying here, I’m just rambling now. I think my point is that anti-racism is starting to get on my nerves almost as much as racism. I just wish we could all recognize that we’re all human beings and love each other equally and not be so ready to get offended or hurt or angered or upset at something as arbitrary as a word like oriental or nigger or kike or honky or cracker or canadian.

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I think you make a good point…the world has become so politically correct, and has been so sensitive, yet, we are a world that has become numb watching violence on the news, in the movies, ect…
I find that when someone is “ultra-sensitive”, then they tend to have more issues about ALL THE INJUSTICE IN THE WORLD (aimed at themselves mostly) I also tend to think that some people ought to toughen up/buck up/shut up ect…And, the mean nasty verbally cruel people need to be rounded up, branded, and stuck on some island where the native islanders get to pelt them with jujubes (sp?) and camel dung.
And as for you Cisco:
yes, you need a nap
yes, you were starting to ramble (intelligently tho)
And, yes, you are a #2 pencil (but I love ya anyway)

(Sorry, I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but, I calls em as I sees em…And the flow of my words have a sort of flair to them, donchathink? )

[auntnut is gonna get some sleep too…sweet dreams cisco]

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It’s all about power. People who feel they’ve been “marginalized” take back a small piece of the power that the man has over them by informing him (usually as nastily as possible) of his colossal ignorance, unfeeling arrogance, insensitivity, racism, etc in his use of the “wrong” (old, inappropriate, etymologically-incorrect, etc.) term to describe them. This harangue tends to restore dignity to the “marginalized” people, as it removes dignity from the man, and is good for a whole lot of sound and fury. Eventually, the man gets the message, stops using the offensive terminology, which is usually exactly the point that the newly-learned term is revealed to have its power roots too.
Rinse and repeat.

4

antioccidentals ? Sounds kind of like a dietary supplement, but hey, anything to avoid offending the tight-assed defenders of pan-continental-antidifferentialism. When we destroy all words that permit the description of geographic distinctions, surely the distinctions themselves will also cease to exist :smack:

5

Thank you, squink.
The problem with this sort of thing is that it’s so vauge. I usually don’t use the term Oriental because it just feels so… dated. But I’ve never come across anyone that actually objected until now. And holy cow did he object…

It’s like the term Black… I know Black people that still use it, and others that insist on “African American”. It’s more a matter of personal preference, IMHO.

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I only ever heard about this fried chicken and watermelon thing on another thread here a couple of weeks back. I’m absolutely bewildered by it.

I love watermelon and eat it a lot.

Does that make me black or African American?

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Well, I started it all. I never heard of it being offensive. I guess I am just old.

As I posted on the Playmates thread; “Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense.” (Evil to those who think evil of it.) I meant no offense and being attacked just gets my hackles up. A poor tactic.

Being called White didn’t help either.

(George Carlin said he prefers “Blue-eyed Devil.”)

8

Well, how about us hazel-eyed white folks? In fact, most of the white people I know do NOT have blue eyes. But we’re all “ethnic” round here.

I agree that the problem is ‘Asian’ is a little vague. It’s sorta unfair to lump billions of folks from Pakistan to Japan into one category–they’re vastly different and don’t look alike at all. When I hear ‘Asian’, I think of somebody who looks like a Han Chinese rather than a Caucausian from India.

‘Oriental’ seems to be one of those generational things–I seldom hear people below 40 or so use it, and for older folks it was the polite term so I give them some slack. In a way it’s more accurate, since then you can use ‘Middle Eastern’ or ‘Near Eastern’ (a useful term) for Asian people west of China. I don’t think it’s offensive since it refers to the region their ancestors were from, not to a physical characteristic. And there’s a long tradition of admiration and respect for the Orient AFAICT, so it’s not like saying a black person is from the jungle, which is very offensive since it implies a boatload of stuff about their level of civilization and intelligence.

As for words hurting people, they do. They change impact over time, and depend a lot on how you let them affect you, and when I’ve been called a cracker I laughed because of the novelty of it but may have thought differently had I been a poor white sharecropper. So polite people, just don’t use them.

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I never knew the term Oriental was offensive. When did this happen and why?

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From what I understand, the term Oriental refers to objects and not to people. Thus, Oriental rugs is ok to say, but an Oriental person isn’t because you “objectify” him or her, if objectify is even the right word here.
The point is that, to some, the using Oriental means you think lowly of him or her.

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Ender24 is correct.That’s also the argument I’ve heard aginst using Oriential. As a fiend said to me once, “Hey man, Oriental is a RUG, not a race!” I think Fiestymongrel would enjoy that quote.

Cisco you have somewhat of a point there, but once again, it relative to expirence. For example, I never used the “cracker” word, it’s dumb and in fact it was invented by whites before pre-slavery times (do a google on it) in England to desginate poor people. However blacks now use the same word for different reason (the origonal word was to say you were so poor all you could eat is “crackers”,but other races used it to denoute “white” skin color I beleive) As far as the 95-100% thing I would ask a cite, but once again it’s relative to expirence. Hell 90-95% of the racial stuff I 've seen in real life is aginst blacks,espcially when I was in the south.

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I think lowly of people who invent rules by which to judge others’ behavior.

You don’t like a word? Fine. Don’t use it. Set an example for those of us who lack your fine-tuned sense of linguistic nuance.

If you feel really strongly about it, make it your life’s work to serve on the usage board of a dictionary, where you can vote to have the objectionable word labelled “offensive” instead of “slang” or “informal.”

But please don’t appoint yourself the final word on my usage just because you prefer another usage.

I suggested that my university stop referring to “Freshman Orientation” because it’s offensive. I suggested we use the term “Freshman Asiation” and those idiots actually discussed it seriously.

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But in the vast, vast majority of times the word ‘Oriental’ is used in reference to a person, it is not intended to mean that the person is thought low of (in my experience). The user simply doesn’t know that some think of it as an insult. What I’d like to know is how this minority representation that it is meant as an insult suddenly because the “correct” one.

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Personally, I don’t use it for the same reason I don’t use ‘motorcar’ or ‘picture show’. It just sounds far more old-fashioned than offensive. Still, I can understand why some people are bothered by it. I get in the same kind of discussions over terms like ‘gaijin’ and ‘half’.

Semi-serious question: what about the expression “oriental cuisine”? On the one hand, it’s an object and would fall under the ‘oriental rug’ category. On the other, cuisine is something very closely linked with a culture and its people.

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I don’t think it’s particularly insulting, but I do think it’s slightly inaccurate, since the term is linked with 19th century Orientalism (which, ironically, given Paul’s location, used to include the Middle East), and therefore carries some baggage. Personally I’d say East Asian.

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Here’s what The American Heritage Dictionary has to say:

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jjimm, when I lived in England “Oriental” was the standard term, since “Asian” usually means Indian or Pakistani. It didn’t seem to be considered offensive at all then (1996). Is that no longer the case there?

18

Oriental also has some imperalistic overtones. Most Asians aren’t offended by it, some are. It sounds old fashioned in America to most people. Kind of like “Negro.” Nothing horribly wrong, not a slur, just not really what most people “in the know” use.

Yes, its pretty generalized. So is white. My son is Korean. My grandmother is German. My co-worker is Dutch. But sometimes there is a want to categorize by race. Why are there so many women whose ancestery appears to be of Northern European origin featured in Playboy, and so few whose ancestary appears to be Japanese/Chinese/Korean/Thai, etc? is cumbersome.

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“Oriental” is not an offensive term any more than “Negro” is. They are both words that are now seen as outmoded, and can, in some contexts, be used in an offensive manner, but “Oriental” isn’t in the same category of ugly racial slurs as words like “gook,” “slope,” or “zipperhead.”

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To draw a possible linguistic parallel I associate Oriental/Asian/Japanese with Indian/Native American/Sioux. The first descriptor in each triad is the older one, quaint sounding, possibly a bit inaccurate, but not intrinsically offensive, although some people get worked out of shape about it. If it bugs someone, I try not to use it when they’re around. The second is my preferred adjective in each case, but I try to figure out the specific nationality if I can and use it. I’ve lived such a sheltered life I’ve never met an American born Asian-American. Every Asian I’ve known I’d have been able to refer to their specific nationality, should I have needed to. The Indian/Native American question came up many times, however, while I was living in South Dakota.

-Myron