It seams to me that most country that is poor today are more hang up on traditions and religion than more successfull capitalistic countries in Western-Europe, North-America, Japan and Austalia.
I know there are more reasons, but do “educated” capitalists feel that traditions are an obstacle for free trade and economical development ?
and do the people in these poor country feel that capitalism and free trade destroy their traditions and values ?
Do they have to give them up to get a higher living standard ?
are tradition and religion the biggest obsticle for free trade and capitalism ?
‘Tradition’ is far too broad an idea to be blamed for anything.
Anti-democratic traditions are certainly a hindrance to capitalism and democracy, of course.
Other traditions are very supportive of capitalism. The tradition of bartering. Certain cultural traditions which recognize individual rights. Traditions centering around hard work and honest relations.
Other traditions are neutral in relation to capitalism. Whether a society thinks it is correct to wear hats or eat only unleavened bread is pretty much irrelevant to that country’s success as a capitalist country.
But traditions as a whole can be valuable to a country, because they provide stability. They provide universal social ‘language’ which help people get along. A lot of what we see as ‘manners’ are traditional, and their purpose is to act as a social lubricant. We shake hands when we meet out of tradition. The exact purpose for the handshake is no longer relevant or even known to most people, but the tradition lives on, and gives us a way to formalize our interpersonal relations.
As for capitalism destroying traditions and values - ask the Jewish people. They seem to have maintained a pretty strong culture and set of traditions in a capitalist world. Or ask the Amish, who live in peace in the heart of the most capitalist country in the world, despite the fact that they reject most capitalist ideals.
Most American cities have a ‘Chinatown’ where asians live and maintain ancient traditions. Here in Canada we have all kinds of cultural enclaves. And even outside of that you can see ethnic groups like Poles and Ukrainians maintaining very strong cultures inside the U.S.
So no, capitalism and democracy are not a threat to traditions - unless those traditions include things like stoning women to death for adultury, treating them like chattel, allowing ritual murder over feuds, installing totalitarian leaders, and the like. Those ‘traditions’ I think you could say are in danger from capitalism.
I have the impression that tradition and religion often goes hand in hand. Protestantic countries had more individual freedom from the start than catholic countries. Catholic countries had a more collectice system. A lot of countries in the third world - especially muslim and hinduistic countries have a very strong collective system, and it’s often hard for us individualist in the west to understand the logic there.
I agree a bit. Traditions in Japan and South-Korea are perhaps a good example on this.
[qoute]As for capitalism destroying traditions and values - ask the Jewish people. They seem to have maintained a pretty strong culture and set of traditions in a capitalist world. Or ask the Amish, who live in peace in the heart of the most capitalist country in the world, despite the fact that they reject most capitalist ideals.
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yes, but the very religious jews aren’t involved with society. They are very dependent on money support from secualar jews.
The amish have choosen to not live with what is todays standard in a western country. Their way of life would have been destroyed if the had choosen to live after todays living standard
Nope. I’m a Mennonite. Very close to Amish. There are all sorts of Mennonites, some of which are very, very orthodox and eschew all sorts of modern technology. Some are more ‘modern’. Some live in cities, some live on farms. The culture is very strong throughout most mennonite communities.
And they have thoroughly embraced capitalism, at least the Mennonites in the area I grew up in.
As I understand it, the Amish also embrace capitalism - they sell their products on the open market, after all. It’s just that their traditions lead them into a lifestyle that is not very ‘competitive’ - instead of capitalism destroying their culture and traditions, they have figured out a way to make capitalism mold to their traditions, or rather, they have found a way to allow their traditions to stay alive and allow them to live harmoniously inside an agressively capitalism culture.
I wonder how many Amish would survive in, say, Saudi Arabia?
If you want to look for threats to tradition and culture, I’d suggest you look to places like the Arab worlds in the middle east, which aggressively suppress cultures other than their own.
Remember the Taliban blasting away the Buddhist sculptures in Afghanistan?
Before the pedants chime in, I know that Afghanistan isn’t Arab. And I should clarify that I’m not singling out Arabs here.
But capitalism is continually blamed for destroying ‘culture’. McDonalds is hated for that reason. And yet, capitalist countries tend to be very respectful of other cultures and traditions. There are many, many worse offenders:
Robert Mugabe is practicing genocide against the white culture in his country.
The Taliban blasted away ancient statues and persecuted Christians and even other Muslims.
The Bolsheviks plundered and destroyed the Christian churches in the Soviet Union and actively suppressed the cultures in its client states.
The Arab nations have been trying to destroy the Jewish culture in the Middle East.
Saddam launched genocidal attacks against the Kurds to suppress their culture.
The Chinese are persecuting people in Tibet and elsewhere.
The Khmer Rouge killed millions to suppress other cultures and traditions than their own.
The Nazis tried to eradicate the Jews from the world.
And yet, I constantly hear about how ‘capitalism’ is destroying other cultures, because of such horrors as blue jeans and fast food restaraunts. Man, that doesn’t even rate.
>> It seams to me that most country that is poor today are more hang up on traditions and religion than more successfull capitalistic countries in Western-Europe, North-America, Japan and Austalia.
I do not accept that premise at all. The roots of successful western cultures go back centuries. The fundamental concepts of limits on the powers of government, of fundamental human rights, of the rule of law, of strong respect of private property rights . . . they go back many centuries and those are the basis of successful capitalism.
tradition means of course that you are poorer while capitalism means that there are a fat chanche that your marriage will collapse. The family structure are weaker under capitalism and the suicide rate far higher
sailor, it’s apparent he’s not debating your point (which is, if I understand correctly, that successful capitalist societies already had traditions in place that were amenable to that economic system, thus there was no great conflict); he’s answering his own OP question, and his answer is that indeed capitalism and tradition are incompatible, according to his definition of what it involves. Notice he has concluded that remaining “traditional” keeps you poor, but becoming capitalistic ruins your families.
Actually, this is not quite so. Yes, if by holding on to tradition you mean adopting an inflexible attitude towards change, you will not derive the optimum fruits of progress; and yes, if your focus on material acquisitiveness leads you to ignore your social structures, you’ll have family problems. But neither is something that HAS to happen.
I do wonder, if Havel.2002 had already reached his conclusion, why ask it as a question, rather than presenting it and defending it it from the very start.