Is two political parties much better than one.

I get the idea for this thread from the thread on DC statehood, and Democrats being in the majourity in DC. So pardon me for borrowing.

I remember back in the day (80s) when Reagan was severely criticising (suddenly I can’t spell) the Soviet Union for holding elections with only one political party. And it has struck me that having (essentially) only two parties is not a whole lot better…much of our beaurocratic system is belaboured by special interests, corruption, partisonism, etc…and frankly the 2 parties are more similar than I would care for.

The upcoming presidential election in point…this seems to be a case of choosing the lesser of two evils. Bush is surely Satan’s own child on Earth, but I don’t get a lot of good vibes from Gore either. For one who is truly concerned about issues…environment, campaign reform, etc…neither of them have a lot of good credentials.

I suppose one could argue that we also have the Reform party and the Libertarians, and the Green Party but they
don’t amount to much.

Anyway, I am by no means a political scientist, but I wonder if we might not be better off if we simply eliminated the party systems altogether, and have individuals run on the issues alone (let’s imagine a fantasy world where Democrats and REpublicans would actually let this happen). I am sure there are a lot of technical pitfalls to this, but how would people feel about this concept?

Ack, before I get creamed, let me say I know the threat title should start with “Are two political…” It is still early in the morning. :frowning:

I wonder if we might not be better off if we simply eliminated the party systems altogether, and have individuals run on the issues alone (let’s imagine a fantasy world where Democrats and REpublicans would actually let this happen)

That’d be assuming away the problem, wouldn’t it?

Suppose that there were no party structures and that individuals ran for office on individual platforms. To get a majority in a legislature, they would have to agree (or 50%+1 would). Informal alliances would form, the effective ones would win and those individuals capable of mediating differences and marshalling deals would become influential. Voila: small parties.

Whether or not you would end up with two important parties (US, UK, Australia, France etc) or half a dozen fairly important ones (Italy, Israel) I don’t know.

What I do know is that you can’t take the politics out of politics.

picmr

Well, I suppose I could share my thoughts on this, but, apparently, since I am a Libertarian, it wouldn’t amount to much.

-VM

“We have taken control of both the Democratic and Republican parties! You puny earthlings will have no choice but to vote for one of us as your alien overlords!”
“Wait! I’m going to vote for a third party!”
“What? And throw away your vote? Muhahaha!”

-The Simpsons

Well, Matt misquoted the Simpsons (the last line is “Go ahead… throw your vote away! Mwahahaha!”). I know, I’m the epitome of loser. ANYWAY…

I think the two-party system works just dandily. I mean, it provides opposition, and opposition drives people to outperform their opponents. As such, we get corrupt politicians, but at least they have to put a handle on it, AND they can’t just become fat and lazy. And corruption in politics is almost guaranteed anyway.

The unfortunate part about the party system is that there are so many people in the US who don’t give a flying fandango about the “issues”, and vote entirely by party lines.

Another interesting aspect of our system is the constant flux of power. After a period of time with conservatism dominating the political spectrum, some president makes a mistake or raises the public’s ire and the spectrum shifts left. After a while, people get tired of excessive tolerance and yearn for the “good old days, when men were men, women were virgins, and schoolteachers beat their students”.

If you were to check the overall scope of political leanings in the US and blend them together (that is, take a general consensus), one could easily come to the realization that the US, as a whole, is very Moderate, or even Libertarian-esque.

Just for the record, I think the Straight Dope should create its’ own political party. Cecil for President!!!

Another problem is that the tendency is to think of the two parties as diametrically opposed. Actually, by Canadian or European standards, they’re basically extreme right wing and not quite as extreme right wing. The tendency is to think that if the Reps and Dems disagree on an issue, they must represent the opposite ends or the only two solutions.

“Some politicians are Republican and some are Democratic,
And their feud is dramatic,
But except for the name,
They are identically the same.”
-Ogden Nash

Smartass…

…an appology, I didn’t meant to put down Libertarians, but I can see how my wording sounded that way. What I meant is that so few Americans vote for them that their party has little political influence. Personally I LOVE the Green Party, but I am timid about voting for Ralph Nader, because it might be a “waste” of a vote.

I think the main problem with the 2 party system, as described above, is that it projects the image of diametrically opposed sides. In fact the opposite is often true, often the two “opposite sides” will be anything but. This is known as “manufacturing consent”, (see the works of Noam Chomsky) by presenting two sides to choose from, both who agree on a certain principle, one manages to make everyone else agree on that principle.

I would honestly like to see a more European system, with quite a few parties creating coalitions in order to rule rather than the current 2 party system.

I have been recently been doing some reading on some alternative voting systems that seek to minimize some of the problems that two-party dominance creates. These systems provide ways in which alternative parties can find a greater voice in government, if their views are more representational of the views of the voters than their lack of success in the current election system indicates. Two of these systems that I’ve found interesting are approval voting and declared strategy voting. Without going into the history or the mathematics involved, here is a brief summary:

In approval voting, each voter is permitted to cast one vote of approval for every candidate that he would approve of winning the election. Thus if there were four candidates, I might definitely find one to be my best choice, one to be somewhat acceptable, and the other two to be absolutely unacceptable. I would cast a vote for each of the first two, and not the others. The winner would still be the one who obtained the most votes.

The advantage of approval voting is that it prevents a third or fourth party candidate from splitting the votes that would have otherwise gone to one of the others. For example, in the current system, three canditates might win the following percentages of votes:
A-20%
B-35%
c-45%
No candidate has actually demonstrated the approval of the majority, but C is declared the winner because he has obtained the most votes. But it’s possible that the people who voted for A really would rather that B win than C. In approval voting, they would cast votes for both A and B, giving B 55% of the vote and thus the victory. This would more accurately reflect the approval of the majority for a candidate to hold the office.

More complicated is declared strategy voting. This system seeks to minimize the effective conclusion that voting for an alternative party is “wasting” the vote. For example, if I genuinely prefer to vote for the socialist candidate, but believe that she doesn’t have a chance in the world of winning, I might vote for the liberal one with the belief that at least it’s not as bad as the conservative one; I’ve chosen “the lesser of two evils”. The situation is expressed succinctly at one of the links provided below:

In a declared strategy system, voters don’t cast a vote, they cast a strategy of how their vote should be counted after calculating all the strategies cast by the other voters. I might cast the following strategy: “Assign my vote to the socialist candidate if and only if at least 20% of the other voters also assign their vote to her; otherwise, assign it to the liberal one.” There are two key advantages to this system: first, alternative candidates are more likely to be elected if they genuinely represent the approval of the majority. Second, regardless of who wins, more accurate information about public opinion is made available to those who find it useful in decision making. The obvious disadvantage is that it is much more difficult for the voters to understand, which makes it less likely for them to use it effectively.

Anyone interested in further reading may want to check out these articles:
Approval voting
http://www.kellogg.nwu.edu/faculty/weber/papers/approval.htm
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/government/approvalvote/goodsoc.html
Declared strategy voting
http://www.research.att.com/~lorrie/pubs/diss/
http://www.globalideasbank.org/diyfut/DIY-219.HTML

avalongod:

Your statement annoyed me, not because it hurt my feelings, but because it encourages similar thinking.

My contribution to the proceedings:

-I intend to “waste my vote” this year voting for the Libertarian Presidential candidate. Four years ago, he got a ridiculously low number of votes. This year, he expects to get at least twice as many. If this trend continues, more and more people will become aware of the party and the fact that they have another choice. The trick is growing support to the point that people don’t feel they are wasting their votes. The more people vote mainstream to avoid this “waste”, the more entrenched the two main parties become.

-Surprisingly enough, the Dems and Reps can behave in a quite nonpartisan manner. A good example is when they act together to raise the signature requirements for candidates in order to keep out third parties. Or when they change the paperwork requirements at the last minute.

-The fact that so many people think of their choice as a choice between evils says all that needs to be said. The solution: Pick another party that you think is better and waste your votes and money bringing them to power. If enough people feel this way, you will, at the very least, get the attention of the entrenched elite.

-VM

Smartass: Sheesh, you are one tough dude to appologize to.

:slight_smile:

Hi avalongod. Hi Smartass. :smiley:

I just wanted to correct a glaring mathematical error I discovered in my example of approval voting. If the votes were cast as I said, B’s percentage wouldn’t be 55% percent, it would be 55/120 or ~46%. Still not a majority, but in any event, the results would more accurately reflect the choices of the voters.

avalongod:

Sorry, wasn’t rejecting your apology (accepted just fine). Having reread my post, I was just making it clear that my feelings weren’t nearly as hurt as it might have seemed.

-VM

Taking us back to the OP’s idea for a moment, let’s review how political parties got going in the United States, to understand why we have them and why they aren’t going away.
When the founders created the Constitution, one of their primary concerns was the formation of political parties. They had had ample experience with the difficulties such groupings were creating for England’s kings (the whole damn Revolutionary War can be laid in large part to the dominence during the critical phase of the “King’s Friends”, ministers who had primarily Tory sympathies, though the actual term ‘party’ hadn’t yet been applied. Various parts of the Constitution of 1787 were intended to stop factionalism, including the Electoral College, the method of selecting Senators, etc. They failed because you can’t take the politics out of government.

During the administration of Washington (himself not a member of any particular faction), those who advocated a strong federal government and those who advocated a much more state’s rights government began squaring off over policy decisions. By the 1796 election, these groups actually reached decisions on who from among them should run for the office of President; John Adams was selected as the primary opponent of Thomas Jefferson. However, because electors could vote for anyone they wanted, several unusual things happened, including at least one Federalist elector voting for TJ (at the time each elector still voted for two people; one elector voted for both TJ AND Adams). In the 1800 election, the anti-Federalists, known as Democrat-Republicans, won the first election contested solely between candidates of each party. Thus, by 1800, not 12 years after the formation of the new government, we had two parties, representing ‘opposing’ viewpoints.

This system was further entrenched by two occurrences; the initiation of the popular vote for election of electors, and the initiation of party conventions for the selection of candidates. On rare occaision, it has been upset; 1860 was one such instance, where the new Republican party overcame split opposition among the Democrats to win the Presidency contested by four candidates of three parties. But since then, only once has a third-party candidate for President out polled a major party candidate for President (1912, Teddy Roosevelt over Taft, causing Wilson to win).

So, the parties exist because the grew in the making, so to speak.

Can we eliminate parties? Not without violating the First Amendment, which has been interpreted as including a right to associate as part of the right of free speech; political partyism is one of the specific things this protects.

As for the idea of three or four party politics, let’s look at how they occur and what effect they have.

The American system encourages the limitation of parties to two, because we have a strong executive voted for seperately from the legislature. Thus, all politics in America ends up boiling down to the haves vs. the have-nots. Anyone who thinks the Southern Democrats were ideologically similar to the northern liberals of Kennedy stripe in the 50’s and 60’s is nuts; they banded together because both groups didn’t like the Republicans, who had been in office almost consistently from 1861 to 1933, then again from 1952 through 1992. In the typical parliamentary government of the European continent, however, the executive, even when seperated from the legislature, is usually weak; it is the control of the legislature that counts. THAT creates the potential for multiple factions, which indeed we see in France, Germany, Italy, Israel, etc. No offense, but with the possible exception of Germany, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to suffer the sort of silliness that goes on in countries where more than two parties exist. Why? Coalitions.

When you have more than two parties, you make inevitable the possibility of plurality governance. Thus, if the center doesn’t win 50%+1 of the seats in the legislature, they have to accept either the left or the right into government with them to make sure their policies are passed in votes. This creates strange results, with small parties holding up important legislation while they get their piece of the pie. Imagine, for instance, a flood-relief bill held up by the Green party until the Republicans agree to a highly environmentally friendly rule for administering the national monuments, or a health care bill proposed by Democrats stalled until they agree to the demand of the Anti-Abortionists to refuse federal funding of abortion procedures. Often, the result is unstable governments; Italy has had so many different official governments since WWII you can’t keep track.

I don’t like two party systems; I tend to be one of those unserviced people in the middle who get faintly disgusted by both sides (people on the flanks feel even worse; they don’t get serviced by anyone except in primaries). But I can’t stand one-partyism (Mexico hasn’t been helped by it), and I shudder at multiple partyism. So, until we stop being creatures of politics, I’ll take what we have. :slight_smile:

remember the futurama thing? It was John Jefferson vs Jefferson John and they looked identical. And the key issues were like a titanium tax or something.

I personally think i should be emperor of the world

Something else to consider is the danger in a two-party system of only ever acting in opposition to the other party. In the UK the main parties seem to define themselves in terms of how they would reverse the policies of the other one: (in the early 1980s, at least) privatisation vs. nationalisation, unilateral disarmament vs. nuclear capabilities, laissez-faire economics vs. social paternalism.

The danger with this kind of politics, obviously, is that in trying to create a distinct identity a party ends up following “opposed” policies rather than doing “what’s best” for a country. At the moment the Conservative Party is moving further and further right-wing (detention centres for immigrants being a prime example) in an effort to distinguish itself from the ever-more-centrist Labour Party. Two-party systems run the risk of destroying any hope of consensus politics in this way.

Does anyone think that a third party can beat out on one the two main ones in the U.S. anytime soon? The Reform Party and the Green Party’s votes have been rising, along with the Libertarian Party, but will they ever more or less estinguish the Democrats and the Republicans? We’ve had those two since the 1860’s. Does the outlook of the Reform, Green, and Libertarian Parties look better than, say, that of what happened to the Bull Moose Party or others since the Republicans and Democrats took charge?

Jello–I don’t think it will be very long before one or more of the “third parties” becomes a serious contender. Probably not in the next few elections, though.

It seems to me that this election, moreso than any we’ve had in a while, is not about who you like more, but who you dislike less. I have encountered very few people who genuinely like Gore or Bush, but they’re willing to vote for one over the other. I like to think that the American voters will eventually figure out that it doesn’t have to be that way–we don’t have to order off the menu we’ve been given.

Ross Perot opened us up to the idea of a third party candidate. Nader and Buchanan will each take home a few percent this time, effectively cancelling one another out. As it is, Nader is hampered by his brainy excess and his embrace of complex issues, Buchanan by his ultra-fundie sieg-heiling, and Perot by the fact that he’s a Crazy Little Bastard. I think that if a third-party candidate came along with some genuine appeal, the people would be ready to jump.

That said, I’m pushing Nader this time, because like the man and because as much as I dislike Bush, I don’t like Gore much more. Although I must say, the Biafra–Abu Jamal ticket had its possibilities.

Dr. J

PS: Tom Tomorrow fans will note that Sparky the Penguin declared his candidacy in last week’s cartoon. His slogan? “You could do a lot worse this year.”