Is University of Phoenix a real school? What is 'Devry'

Factual Questions
21

I don’t think (and didn’t say) that you’re wrong. And fair enough, you acknowledge that most of your response to these schools is just a bias towards traditional bricks and mortar schools (despite being familiar with online instruction and noting the strong internal motivation required to be a successful student in that mode).

But this is GQ, not IMHO. Saying that “as and employer, I have a bias against degrees from these schools” is a potentially useful data point for the OP, I’ll agree with you there. And I apologize for the “your complete ignorance” remark, but the information you’ve provided so far provides information about you rather than the schools in question.

Both UoP and DeVry offer both online and in-person classroom instruction. What sets both of these schools apart from the “traditional” schools is that they are for-profit. In the end that’s not so very different than the engine that drives other schools, but one place it shows up very clearly is in admission requirements. These schools, at least currently, are motivated to accept any student who can pay the fees, so as a student you’re not as likely to be rubbing elbows with elite classmates. The effect is to make these schools analogous to community colleges, but with nationwide scope and potentially better resource efficiency.

I would love to see some data on how for-profit degreed graduates perform in the real world vs. their colleagues with “traditional” degrees. I’m not sure the “we’ll take anyone” dynamic translates into a “we’ll graduate anyone,” since that could be pretty damaging to the school (and as Shagnasty makes clear, these schools have some bias to overcome already).

22

Before all the online stuff, the University of Phoenix was founded as a brick and mortar university in Phoenix, Arizona.

23

My wife got her masters degree from UoP. She didn’t do it online, but went to an actual brick and mortar building 2-3 evenings per week plus some sessions on Saturday.

It’s by no means a diploma mill. She worked every bit as hard (probably harder) than she did to get her bachelors degree at a traditional university. Her family didn’t see her very much while she was studying.

Yes, it’s a for-profit institution, but all that means is that they are not subsidized by a state government or other private institution.

24

I used to work for a branch of Career Education Corporation. They are a very big for profit education company. Phoenix was one of our competitors. I worked at a “Brick & Mortar” school which offered, business, art, and fashion degree’s. We also offered our students online courses. CEC offers many completely online programs. My university was accredited (barely) by SACS.

Our cost was equivalent or higher than a very prestigious private university that was near by. Never the less students were very dissatisfied with the school. The services available to students at any cheap 2 year state institution dwarfed what we provided.

There was tremendous pressure applied to the sales force to bring students in. They targeted poor people, who did not know anything about higher ed. Generally these students didn’t finish because they could not afford the tuition. I know this because part of my job was to encourage reentry of students who didn’t re-enroll. Thank Og I was not in sales.

Online programs are very profitable for schools. There is no building to take care of, you can enroll as many students as you want, and you can get faculty from anywhere to teach the course. Unfortunately at my school the failure rate for students taking online courses was so high that we placed numerous restrictions on who could take them.

25

DeVry graduate here. B.S. in Computer Information Systems. I attended the Columbus, Ohio campus and graduated in… mumble1998mumble

Let me toss my 2 cents in here:

DeVry does indeed offer traditional degrees, as I mentioned I earned a B.S. from the Columbus campus. If I recall correctly, the availability and degree/course offerings may vary by campus. I discovered after graduation as I searched for work in the NYC area most employeers were not aware of a 4 year degree from DeVry because their local campus only offered 2 year degrees. It was a hurdle but didn’t prevent me from reasonably quickly landing a position with Bear Stearns right out of college.

My personal experience leads me to believe that at least in the CIS program (a good friend attended DeVry in the EET program and his experience mirrors mine described here) DeVry is not a diploma mill. Yes, they are for profit and there were times when that was obvious in terms of their marketing, etc. which at the time was heavily dependent upon job placement / starting salary statistics. My CIS class began the 1st trimester with approximately 300 students. By the completion at 9th trimester, there were less than 40 remaining who actually obtained their B.S. degree. Is DeVry guilty of taking in a lot of students initially and getting their tuition bucks for the first few trimesters? Sure. Most of those without the intelligence and dedication didn’t last long and ended up either dropping out entirely or enrolling into other programs such as Accounting.

DeVry’s B.S. programs are heavily focused upon the specific discipline, in my case that meant a lot of system analysis and programming classes. However, those classes were balanced by the more traditional elective courses such as Psychology, Sociology, Literature, History, etc. DeVry does not offer the variety of courses as one would have at say The Ohio State University but it does attempt to balance and provide a rounded (if planned) education.

Costs - It is absurdly expensive and in hindsight I do believe it was worth the cost based upon my current career and income level - HOWEVER - it is damn expensive and still in hindsight I might weight my decision factors a little differently than I did at that time in my life. At that time, a 3 year track to a B.S. degree and the “planned” curriculum (no fighting for classes or having to self-plan my educational course) were very appealing to me as a non-traditional student with limited time and a full-time job.

4-year degree in 3-years - This was very attractive to me. DeVry’s curriculum allows you to obtain a traditional 4 year degree in 3 years (9 trimesters). To do so is a bit brutal - 3 15 week trimesters a year with minimal breaks between trimesters for 3 years straight. Average course load was 19-23 hours per trimester. It was intensive and at times exhausting but for a non-traditional student like myself who finally wised up to getting an education and wanting to complete that process within a reasonable time-frame it was a good match.

Non-Traditional Student - For me, there was a lot of attraction in attending a university that contains a higher percentage of non-traditional students. The idea, in my late-20’s, of attending OSU with a bunch of 18-20 year olds was not appealing to me. Having classmates from a variety of ages and backgrounds and experiences (recent graduates, retired military, 2nd degree seekers, etc.) was a great benefit and added a lot of perspective to our courses.

Reputation - This is a two edges sword. I admit, I don’t proclaim loud and proud that I am a DeVry graduate. This is mostly because I react the same way as most people do when you see commercials on MtV for DeVry - I just shiver. To me there was a significant disconnect between the cheap and cheesy marketing/advertising DeVry does and the quality of my experience and education. I am proud of myself for obtaining my degree, the first in my family to do so. I am proud of the career I have managed since graduating from DeVry. I realize that without that piece of paper, I would not have the opportunities that I have now. Without the education and skills I developed there, I would not be as successful in my career as I have been. I am thankful and appreciative that DeVry gave me a path to obtain that degree which fit into my needs at that time in my life. I just try to avoid answering the inevitable “So where’d you go to school?” questions. :wink:

I’m sure there are probably more things that can be said (good and bad) about DeVry. If anyone has specific questions for me about my experience feel free to ask.

MeanJoe

26

The Arizona Cardinals play at the University of Phoenix Stadium. Apparentoly UoP is ‘for profit’ enough for a multi-year, multi million dollar naming rights deal :slight_smile:

That stadium is unreal. The whole field can be wheeled out into the desert.

27

“Yes, it’s a for-profit institution, but all that means is that they are not subsidized by a state government or other private institution.”

If they are accredited, then the students can get student loans, which are guaranteed and subsidized by the federal government.

So if that is true, it is subsidized, and in a big way.

28

I read the original comment to imply the school itself does not receive direct funding from the state or other private institution. That is a separate item than financial aid to students.

Then again, I went to DeVry so maybe I’m wrong… :wink:

MeanJoe

29

I used to teach for the for-profit “Denver Technical College” which was later bought by Devry. All the former Denver Tech locations are now part of the Devry system.

As an instructor for Denver Tech, I knew that part of my job was to make money for the university. The other part, though, was to teach the students.

I went to my faculty adviser once and asked what my goal was. Was I to create graduates or was I to educate the students as best as I could?

She beat around the bush with a one-one-hand-but-on-the-other-hand reply and I walked away unenlightened. I then developed a my philosophy for teaching: “Create graduates I would want to work with.”

…and so I did. I taught Unix mostly. Twice I taught a basic programming course (mostly flowcharts and pseudo-code) and even once I taught an Intro-to-Winders class. I didn’t Mickey-mouse around and did my best to give the students what I thought was required to meet the stated objectives of the course.

In all the courses I taught, I flunked a grand total of two students. Before each flunking, about halfway through the course, I went to the student adviser and warned them a student was clueless and intervention might be necessary. I don’t know what she did from there.

I can only answer for my class but I didn’t simply create graduates for profit. I saw my role as being important in training a person for a new career (the typical student was looking to change jobs, usually from something entirely non-technical).

Did it work? I think so. On coworker today is a former student of mine - and hired by my team before I was so I didn’t influence the hiring process.

30

I knew several of the faculty pretty well wear I worked. They mostly had the same attitude as you.

The problem with what CEC was doing was not in academics, it was admissions. They would take anyone, include people who had no chance of graduating, and charge them thousands of dollars for as many quarters as they could.

I didn’t work for Devry or Phoenix but I can’t believe they are much different.

31

Yep. I’ve seen it with me own eyes.

32

During my time as a student at DeVry I also worked a a resident advisor so I got to meet and know a large number of incoming new students. I would agree that DeVry did the same thing, enroll large numbers of new students who realistically had little aptitude for the degree program. It was an easy sell at the time, late 90’s and the IT explosion in jobs and high starting salary right out of college. As I mentioned, the majority of those in the CIS track never made it to graduation.

MeanJoe

33

Similarly, I downplay my UoP background. To the point where I don’t like to participate in some conferences where virtually 95% of everyone else is a graduate from The Ohio State University (I’m in a highly specialized field).

Given that, it was a good experience, but highly dependent on working with the right people and lots of self motivation. It was a mix of adults (one of the attractions!), and because it’s a very participatory and interactive environment, I often asked myself how so many of my fellow students had managed to graduate from high school. Still, I’m considering them for a Master’s program. I think the cachet of a Masters outweighs the disadvantages of a name. I’m under no illusion that I’d compete on paper with a Michigan masters, though, but again, small, specialized field, so it doesn’t much matter.

34

To be fair, though, the vast majority of colleges and universities in the US do not have competitive admissions (such as the community colleges you mentioned). So that fact makes the for-profit schools no different from many not-for-profit schools.

What some of the sleazier vocational schools used to do was to aggressively market themselves to people who were not able to finish the program or were not able to get any benefit from it, because the school knew that the students could get government loans to pay the tuition. (So the school got its money, but the student was then on the hook for years of student loan repayments, leaving some in worse financial straits than they were to begin with.) I think the federal government has cracked down on such abuses.

35

For what it’s worth, the UOP website does claim that they are accredited, so overall the content of a degree may be comparable to some brick and mortar universities. It might have every right to call itself a university.

DeVry on the other hand is a trade school. You can certainly learn yourself some useful technical skills and get a job programming someplace. But they don’t teach a full college curriculum. I believe they once got into trouble for assuring students that they could transfer DeVry credit to a traditional uni and complete a real degree. But they couldn’t, and for the simple reason that the specialized technical content of DeVry classes wasn’t applicable to Uni programs that tend to be more theoretical, not to mention that would be transfer students would have virtually no GE units completed. Driving north on the 405, when you get to Sunset there’s a sign: “UCLA This Exit”. When you get over the hill to Ventura Boulevard, there’s another sign: DeVry University This Exit". That’s the closest DeVry comes to being a real uni–a freeway sign that says it is one.

Out here, the University of California hasn’t gotten the memo. As far as I’m aware, they’ve got only a couple of executive MBA programs for nontraditional students. On the other hand, Cal State is a little more accommodating. I’m finishing up an online program at CSU Fullerton now, and while I’ve been reasonably happy with the content, it does bother me that I couldn’t even think of applying to UCLA. Aside from the MBA program, there is no way a non-traditional student can attend UCLA, if they have to work for a living.

36

And I drive by the UoP buildings almost daily. They’re freaking huge. Oh, and I guess I should note, yes, I am in Phoenix!

37

I teach an economics and finance of higher education course and Dewey Finn pretty much said everything I would have. (Want to team teach?)

Spectre, Clark Kerr’s vision for higher education in California set up the CCs as the open-enrollment entry point, the CSUs as the teaching institutions, and the UCs as the flagship research schools. It’s tiered on purpose. Apparently the CSUs are getting ready to roll out doctoral programs in education, which was quite controversial because only the UCs are supposed to award doctorates. I can see how the die-hard believers in the tiered system would greatly object to executive or online education programs at the UC level.

Of course history has a funny way of turning these plans on their head. There are some CSU schools that rival UC schools in programs - I’m thinking of the engineering programs at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, which compete (and sometimes top) the programs at UCLA and Berkeley.

38

Pure hogwash. I have an accredited B.S. from DeVry.

Take a look for yourself, every DeVry location in the state of California offers undergraduate and graduate degree programs.

Ignorance fought - by a DeVry grad. :wink:

MeanJoe

39

No most state schools do not need to market to the same degree the for profit schools I worked at did. Furthermore any professional working in admissions, regardless of the school, should realize that it is unethical to admit students who are clearly incapable of graduating.

When I worked at there, every quarter, enrollment was supposed to increase. This is not the way to run a school.

40

This is true, but it’s not the whole story. While it’s true that UC is indeed supposed to be the flagship research school, all three tiers have the mission of teaching as well. The three-tier structure refers more to the target pools of freshman applicants. The CCs are open-enrollment as you said. CSU is supposed to accept the top third of HS graduates, and UC is supposed to accept the top eighth. As far as I can tell, this is figured across all HS grads–if you are only in the top half of your HS, but it happens to be a good one, you might very well be able to get into UC as a freshman. I don’t know if it’s still true, but when I was researching this for my stepdaughter a few years ago, UC still maintained that they can admit you if you are in the top eighth, but it might be to a less well known campus such as Riverside, rather than UCLA or Berkeley. My experience from attending both UCLA and UCSD is that UC attempts to present itself as a single institution with ten undergraduate branches. By contrast, the individual colleges of the CSU system seem to be more independent.

Regardless, I was angered by the fact that I couldn’t even aspire to work on this master’s degree at UCLA. I’m by no means sure I would have been able to get in, but it would have been nice to try.

I’ve complained elsewhere here about the total absence of inter-institutional cooperation and reciprocity between CSU and UC–if things were different in that area, then UCLA’s weekday only philosophy of class scheduling would be less aggravating.