As the Soviets and the Chinese were mortal enemies they could hardly be puppet masters.
Of course they were influential but Ho was very clever at playing them off, at creating space to maneuver. The fact the Chinese and the unified Vietnam were soon at war shows they were not puppets.
And a Communist. Ho was a Communist since at least the 1920s. He was even one of the founders of the French Communist party.
Now that just makes no sense. How can you know the people want these governments if their choices are so constrained?
I agree that sometimes you need to work with governments that aren’t models of democracy as a practical matter, and that some autocratic governments are less bad than some totalitarian ones. However that’s a far cry from what you said here, and I wonder if you’d like to clarify or explain it some more.
A political thinker I generally admire, Michael Lind, argues in this book that it was urgently necessary for America to fight in Vietnam – but not for the sake of defending/protecting/saving the Vietnamese from Communism or anything else; that is nowhere mentioned, nor is the “domino theory” defended (at least, not in the terms articulated by the Johnson Admin). His thesis is that the war was necessary solely to shore up American credibility in the Cold War at a time when many non-aligned countries might have gone into the orbit of whichever side seemed stronger (the “bandwagon effect”).
I once, at a science fiction convention, heard author Jerry Pournelle argue that the Vietnam War did help the U.S. win the Cold War simply by draining the Soviet Union’s material resources to some small degree. Every truck they made and sent to be blown up in Vietnam was a truck they could not use for domestic industrial purposes.
Neither of which point relates directly to the OP, of course, but they are interesting.
I would think Korea was an ample example of our willingness to fight in these kinds of conflicts.
I’m certain it had a non-zero impact on their economy, and one they had less ability to absorb with their economy than we did. I doubt it was a major factor…and at least some of their airforce probably got some valuable combat experience out of the deal too.
At the time they were rivals, not mortal enemies. And they WERE pulling the strings, to a certain degree. At least as much as SV was a puppet to the US for the same reason…i.e. without OUR aid SV would (and did) collapse like an empty beer can.
Certainly he was…but he was also well respected by our military personnel in that region during WWII and had built quite a close relationship with some of them. We could have used that to have influence with Ho and Vietnam had we chosen to do so. IIRC, WE were his first choice of ally after WWII, despite the fact that he and the USSR were communists (this was prior to China finally becoming fully communist). However, we chose to side with the French (never a wise move, IMHO 
)…and so the die was cast.
What has this got to do with Vietnam? Are you claiming that Ho Chi Mien was NOT a communist…or North Vietnam a communist country?? If not…well, whats your point. If so…well, do you have a cite to back that up??
Well, since we are in rough agreement here, why don’t we further agree to stop going off on tangents and leave Iraq and Iran out of this discussion about Vietnam, ehe? If you like, we can unbend enough to include China and Korea in the discussion however…seeing as they are relatively close to the country that is being discussed. 
-XT
Tagos, while your facts are correct, your argument as a whole is flawed because you’re only looking at half the facts. You’re making the mistake of thinking that only the west was a factor for good or bad. The reality is that there were other powers involved.
Everything you wrote about South Vietnam was equally true of North Vietnam. North Vietnam was also an “artifical” country created by a treaty, run by a totalitarian dictatorship, and propped up by foreign powers. The war was a contest between our bad puppet and their bad puppet.
We could have avoided the entire cold war if somehow both sides could have agreed not to interfere in other countries. But that was never a choice on the menu. If we had unilaterally withdrawn from the conflict, it wouldn’t have made the third world free. The Soviet Union would have just used the vacumn to move in and impose pro-Soviet dictatorships everywhere.
I think you are wrong. The people now live under a dictatorship. The reason I think you are wrong is found in taking a look at those countries where America did not back out of the fight. Germany, Japan, Italy, to name the main ones, these countries are much better off for having lost the war to America. A friend of mine in Germany who served in the German army during WWII told me he owed his life to the Americans. They freed him from the French who was going to make a slave out of him and returned him to Germany to help in the rebuilding.
We can be proud of this country and its moral standards, even if there are some who tarnish them. Pulling out of Nam cost the lives of a million innocent people. The same will happen if we pull out of Iraq, and we will have a government of terriorists to deal with in the future.
I know quite a few of the former Nam protesters. To a person they regret what they helped do. One said: “we really thought we could change the world, but we sure went about it in the wrong way.” Jane Fonda, a leader of the protesters, has apologize publicly many times for her part in the fiasco. Wake up, get the whole story.
Exactly…with those poor bastards in Vietnam caught in the middle. All THEY wanted was independence and a country of their own not dominated by China, Japan or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately they were caught up in the web of geo-politics post-WWII.
Exactly.
-XT
At least it’s their dictatorship. Read post #28 – by a Vietnamese.
In the same sense that the Nazi’s were the German’s dictatorship, the communists under Stalin and Mao were the Chinese dictatorship, etc etc. For that matter, before they were conquered, I suppose the same case could be made that the South Vietnamese government was the south’s very own dictatorship.
The people still have to live under it however.
-XT
Not really. It was more ours than theirs.
:rolleyes: We’ll just have to agree to disagree I guess BG.
-XT
Aside: Having read “Betrayed: The Iraqis Who Trusted America The Most” by George Packer, published in New Yorker, my impression is that there are hundreds or thousands of Iraqis who have been critical to our effort who are simply being left to their fates, mostly death at the hands of sectarian militias.
This is an astonishing statement. Years of bloody war, meaningless deaths of countless innocents, destruction of societies and cultures (Cambodia), all worth it because of some bizarre moralistic theory about having to work hard for something? Is this why bumper stickers keep reminding me that So-and-So is “paying the price for your freedom”? Individuals have a right to freedom and peace. It is not something that someone else has the purview to make other people “earn.” The very notion disgusts me.
Maybe you should have read more closely or made a better attempt to understand what I was getting at before simply spewing out this tape recorded rant? Or, maybe not…whatever floats thy boat I guess.
-XT
Perhaps I misunderstood. My understanding was –
“What actually happened in Vietnam has left the Vietnamese better off than had there been freedom, democracy, independence, and peace from the beginning (handed to them on a silver platter like a boon from one’s betters), because this way whatever peace and freedom they have they’ll appreciate it more.”
If this is an incorrect interpretation of what you said, then I take it back. If not, then I affirm that I find it a moralistic, self-satisfied, and offensive notion.
Well, here is what I ACTUALLY said:
And here is the strawman quote you gave to me:
So, my first question to you is…can you read? I ask this in all seriousness because your interperetation of what I said doesn’t seem to bear much to what I ACTUALLY said.
First off, I didn’t mention ‘freedom, democracy, independence’ or any other such claptrap…nor did I say that the Vietnamese would be better off with them than what they got What I SAID was “Probably how things actually worked out for Vietnam, deaths and all, is better than what would have happened to them if they had simply had it handed to them on a silver platter.” Normal folks, capable of reading would interperet this as saying that the government the Vietnamese ended up with, even though bought at great cost to them (that would be, if you aren’t following along, the current COMMUNIST government) is better than what would have been imposed on them by fiat through outside powers…because they earned that government through death, sacrifice and blood. A government imposed on them, instead of one they fought and died to have, would most likely not have worked out so well. YMMV of course.
If, now having explained it, and assuming you now have understood what I wrote you are still repelled…well, thats your lookout. Personally I feel that a government that people are willing to fight and die for, one that they make great sacrifices to have is superior to one simply imposed on a people at the whim of some outside power. If you don’t like that…well, tough titty. We can always agree to disagree.
-XT
Are you suggesting Burma would be a freer country without Vietnam’s example? Don’t forget, they also have India and Thailand as much nearer (and non-Western) examples.
Thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it.
About me: I’m a student living in Hanoi, so my point of view is hardly representative for everyone, but I think our goverment (the Communist Party) is doing a good job so far. I won’t deny that Vietnam still has many problems (it’s a 3rd world country after all), but it’s not as bad as some people claim to be, and things are starting to come together now. Other than the usual policy that every communist country shares (no “change the regime”), you are free to do whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t violate the law, and our law is far less harsher than that of China, North Korea and Cuba, so it’s actually quite pleasant. The government are doing their best to democraticize/reform themself, they have been letting non CP members into the Congress for a while now, and lately even began to accept criticisms/different viewpoints. You may even go around telling people that they are doing a lame job, and a change of regime is in order, and no one would even bat an eye (well, not really, but you get the point); in fact, bashing the goverment is the “in” thing for the punks here to do. Although, if you receive money doing it (most likely from some foreign organizations), then you will be in big trouble if they find out (that’s what happened to the last couple of dissidents), and good riddance, too, we’ve had enough of foreign powers trying to “help” our people, and those “democracy lovers” seem to love money more than democracy anyways.
All in all, I’m a satisfied citizen.
No, I was born in 1985, though my father, as well as most of my uncles, fought in the war, heck, almost every men past 15 around that time did, some even younger, and they did so semi-voluntarily too (you would look like a wimp if you don’t do what everyone else does). So I have a pretty good idea of what was going on, it helps that I also participate in some internet history forums.
About the events after the war: no, there were no “purges”, re-education camps, yes (it’s only necessary), stupid mistakes and screw-ups, yes (no argument here), mass execution, no. The high death toll around that time (1975-1990) was mainly due to the war with Campuchia, China, the boat people who died fleeing, and the bombs/chemical weapons left behind by the Americans.
And he wrote 8 (?) letters to president Roosevelt and Truman (the latter ignore him), and he even name his newly independent country Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and quote your Declaration of Independence, what more hints do you need?
Many communists name their countries democratic republics. That doesn’t make the countries democratic, or them democrats, does it?
The official name of North Korea is the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. Want to live there?