Is Wicca a Fraud?

I prefer to describe as frauds only those religions that can be proven so – “ancient” books with clear modern textual dependencies, doctrinal conflicts with ascertainable fact, unimpeachable records of substantial double dealing by founders…

In re: Wicca, note that Margaret Murray wrote the “Witchcraft” article for the 14th (1929) Britannica. The modern Britannica more or less apologizes for their role in popularizing her theories.


John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

It sounds like Wicca’s spellcasting is what most of the rest of us call “praying”. Why not just call a spade a spade? I believe in miracles and intercessions, and that prayer can have a very real effect, but I don’t for a second believe that I’m emmitting a magical (magickal?) force of my own volition.


“I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island

Magick is very similar to prayer, but a different word is used because there’s a very different idea behind it.

When you’re praying, you’re asking for a favor. “Please, [deity-of-choice], make this happen for me, because I’m asking so nicely.” Your deity may choose to grant your request or not, purely at ips whim.

A spell or ritual is also a way to make things happen, but the worker takes a much more active role. Instead of just asking for a favor and then waiting around, the worker performs actions that are intended to affect reality and make the desired event come to pass.

Some people believe in the powers of magick; some believe in prayer; some believe both are just self-delusion and wishful thinking. YMMV.


Laugh hard; it’s a long way to the bank.

<< Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana >>

This has sort of been bugging me, and I know it’s thread hijackery, but its like a piece of spinach between someone elses teeth.

The actual quote is

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” and S. was referring to the inability of anhistorical cultures to progress. Human culture cannot advance without some form of record.

Usually, you see it reffering to the holocaust or such, but it applies just as well, and perhaps more interestingly, to, say, Petrarch.

DC.


{\¶/}

It sounds like what Christians call “praying” is what most of the rest of us call “making a wish.” Why not just call a spade a spade?

I don’t believe in miracles or intercessions, or that prayers, spells or wishes have any external effect whatsoever; and urge people to pray, spell or wish in one hand and defecate in the other and see which one fills up faster.

There may be an historical ‘disconnect’ between modern Wicca and ancient pagan practices, but we do not know for a fact that what we now think of as historical paganism was itself an uninterrupted tradition. It could simply be reinvented as needed over the millennia. This does not make it fraudulent.



anser

[[Usually, you see it reffering to the holocaust or such, but it applies just as well, and perhaps more interestingly, to, say, Petrarch.]]IncredibleCrimsonHD

" … pouring off of every page like it was written in my soul … "

I agree with Macha’s statement about Cecil being essentially accurate but cynical. However, he did publish one of Starhawk’s love potions a few years back. I’ve got to give him credit for trying to be accurate, at least.
A major problem we have here is that Christians think that religion is all about what deity (or deities) you “believe in”. This is not hard to understand since they have been taught for years that “whosoever believeth in him” is the most important thing.
For me, I use lots of deities to do magical work. I might use the Goddess, which comes from the (admittedly warped if not just plain incorrect) notion that Pagans have always worshipped a Goddess across all societies across all time until the Christians came along and messed it all up with their male creator. I might use Gods and Goddesses from any pantheon that happens to appeal to me for what I’m doing, including Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Norse pantheons. I might even use Gods and Goddesses from fictional pantheons, such as the Silmarillion or Star Trek.
So do I “believe in them”? Like they are real beings or creatures or spirits that, in some sense, really live? Not as living entities, no. I don’t expect to call Horus in a ritual and have him appear to me and bite me on the ankle. But it’s not as easy as “I believe in God”. In a way, I do believe in them … I believe in the power society has given to their archetypes. I work with that power, created by the types of beings these are supposed to be. They have their strengths and weaknesses, their own unique worldviews, etc. I will use whatever can instruct or inspire me in what I’m trying to do. I don’t have to “believe in” anything, except my own power to manifest what I want to. I certainly don’t want to have anything to do with any energy as negative as “Satan”. I’m not interested in working with that. Sadly, the Christian God is almost as negative, especially if you’re a woman. So Pagans have a tendency to stay away from him too. (I did once have a friend who told me she did a ritual and called Jehova into the circle. Her comment was, “He was actually pretty well behaved.”)
And another misconception is about what “magick” is (for those who don’t know, it’s spelled with a “k” to differentiate it from stage magic). I don’t wiggle my nose and make myself disappear, or materialize objects out of thin air. That’s just movie stuff. I can manifest emotional and even physical healing by directing my energies. I can affect the way people think about things. “Magick is the act of changing consciousness at will” is what Starhawk says. That’s a bit too tame for me. I like what one of her students said to me: “Magick may affect subjective reality. But of more importance is that it changes the caster”.
Enough of a rant for now. But I want to thank Cecil for a pretty good article. I don’t expect him to have much sympathy for any fringe group, but he’s gone out of his way to be fair here. Quoting Margot Adler was about the most even-handed way he could answer this question.

Were do I begin…Start with I don’t like Cecil. I should not say that…I strongly disagree with his thought process. That sounds better, after all I do not know Cecil personally.

Now on to the Wicca issue, I will see if I can make sense of all the thoughts screaming in my head after reading both of Cecil’s writings.

People coming up with the Witch Flying on a Broom thing is from an old Ritual to show the crops how high to grow, people of the time being as they were turned it into something it was not and has stuck around ever since. It had nothing to do with S-E-X that I have ever read.
Prayer vs Casting. I can sum this up in a few words. ** Positive Thinking - Then Taking Action**. That is all both of them are, you use Casting as a means of concentration or to focus in order to achieve a goal. Prayer is doing the same thing just in a slightly different way, you are asking your God to help fullfill this need and gaining positive re-enforcement in your mind. That is the way I see it.

As for any Religion being a fraud, only those that say they are the One True Way are frauds. If you feel my soul is damned to hell for thinking this way please remember one thing…It’s your hell not mine.
KrasH

[[People coming up with the Witch Flying on a Broom thing is from an old Ritual to show the crops how high to grow, people of the time being as they were turned it into something it was not and has stuck around ever since.]]

You got sources to cite on this?
Jill

In this thread, KrasH posted 11-16-1999

In http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000227.html Banshee_ posted 09-07-1999

Now, the funny thing is, when Banshee_ posted that magickal tripe, Banshee_'s profile showed that he/she joined that same day he/she posted.

And look, KrasH’s profile shows that he/she is posting his/her magickal tripe the same day that he/she joined the forum.

Banshee_ only had two posts and disappeared (under a cloud of vociferous opposition who asked for his/her facts). KrasH will probably do the same.

What a complete moron. Hey, Banshee/Krash, remember, here on the SDMB, you’re dealing with intelligent people. Not the idiots you usually hang with. Why don’t you perform a Raise IQ spell on yourself, or maybe conjure up a clue. Coming back on the forum in a new name and repeating the same nonsense isn’t going to convince anyone here – remember, we’re not dumb, like you.

And if you’re legit (hah!), then, as JillCat has said, how about giving us a source for your claim? Got a 16th century diary from a witch that says, “Awakened tired from broom jumping all last night. Ye croppes shouldst grow mightly high this yeare.”?

Peace.

Disclaimer: I have no problem with any practitioner of natural religions who is reasonable and does not attempt blatantly transparent subterfuge.

I call it Renfairism, myself. It’s a hodgepodge of various beliefs and rumours mixed up with a dollop of history, a lot more myth, blended together with the fondly-imagined fantasy that the Olde Wayes Were Goodely.

For those of you not familiar, Renaissance Faires are overpriced hippie swapmeets where an ill-defined slice of European history sprawling somewhere between the Central Middle Ages and the Early Modern Period is enthusiastically but selectively recreated. As an exercise in daft fun, they’re entirely laudable. As a means of extracting money from people, they’re highly successful. As a history lesson, they’re poison.

Modern Wicca reeks of the Renaissance Faire. Take this mention of “Beltain”. Beltane (pronounced, roughly, BYEL-ten-eh) is one of the four quarter days of the Celtic calendar. They are as follows:

February 1 - Imbroc or Imbolc
May 1 - Bealtane
August 1 - Lunasa
November 1 - Samhain

To this day, the Irish (Gaelic) words for the months of May, August and November are Beltane, Lunasa and Samhain respectively. The names also once referred to the entire quarter; this is evidenced by the fact that other month names are either direct imports (Eanáir for January, Márta for March) or clumsy portmanteaux (the names Meán Fómhair and Deireadh Fómhair - September and October - literally translate to “the middle of Autumn” and “the end of Autumn” respectively).

These are Irish, Celtic traditions. The Irish Celtic pantheon (Celts in different regions had different variations on the same fundamental themes and deities) included Lugh, for whom Lunasa, Lutetia (Paris) and Lugdunum; Brid (Bridget) and Celtic traditions include a rich mythology involving these deities and others, races of mystical or mysterious pre-Celtic people such as the Tuatha De Dannan and the Fir Bolg, demigods such as Aengus, heroes such as Fionn MacCumhaill and Cuchulain, remarkable stories such as that of Diarmuid and Grainne, etc., etc.

No broomsticks.

To suggest that modern Wiccans know anything about, or have any connection to, the ancient Celtic festival of Beltane or anything else of that nature is madness. You’ve taken a few things a-la-carte; you liked the spring festival of Beltane and added feminism, pentagrams, cats and other bits and pieces, and made a new religion, which is all well and good. But it’s not accurate history. It’s not how people in Ireland or England or anywhere 2,000 years ago or 200 years ago lived their lives, how they believed, how they worshipped and celebrated and mourned and fought and died, how they passed the days, the stories they told or anything else. It’s bits of language, bits of writing, bits and bits and pieces stirred up together any old how to suit your present needs. I’ve seen RenFaire types wearing milled cotton and eating bananas, yet fondly imagining themselves to be “in character”.

So, when you burble on about how broomsticks were part of Beltane celebrations, you’re telling me three important things:

  1. You are hopelessly confused between past and present, the recently-created and the millennia-old.
  2. You cannot distinguish between things as they were and as you would like them to have been.
  3. You don’t much care.

ben

Yes I joined the day I posted…hmm…So what does that have to do with anything. I have never heard of this MB till I was sent a link for it, saw a topic that interested me and I joined.

You want a source…Let me see what I have.

The New Pagans - Hans Holzer copyright 1972 Doubleday.

Page 15

Quote:

  • At the gatherings of the country folk, the women would bring their brooms as symbols of domestic virtue. They would then ride the around the sacred circle astride the brooms ceremoniously, after which they would jump a few times with their brooms. The idea of this “sympathetic magic” was to “show the grain how high to grow”. *
    Now we get to some of what Cecil had to say:

Whenever witches could not attend a nocturnal rite they would anoint themselves with a hallucinogenic salve made from nightshade, belladonna, and other delusion-producing herbs.
I have many other books that will quote you the same thing. No I do not have some ancient text showing me this to be true, even if I did we still would not know if it was truth or not, some of the best old books I have read are fiction. Unless one of us was there in person we really have no idea if the information I have is true or just false folklore. However I believe this would explain the difference between what I have read and the information Cecil had written for his story. A combonation of storys - legend - myth whatever you want to call it. But I still have never read anything showing it was a sexual thing.
Do you want more info…hey you say you have an IQ that must mean you like to stay informed, I know I do try doing some reading. Goto www.witchvox.com for any other info you would like to have to disprove it to yourself.

Wicca is a 20th century invention of Folklore, Fact, Fiction and everything else in between. It is an attempt to break from the “I will kill you becuase you worship a different God than I do” syndrome, we simply don’t care what path anyone chooses and we take our connection to the Natural World a little more serious than most people do. Yes to say Wicca is an Ancient form of religion is pure B.S.

It is A contemporary Pagan religion with spiritual roots in Shamanism and the earliest expressions of reverence of nature. Among its major motifs are: reverence for the Goddess and the God; reincarnation; magic; ritual observances of the Full Moon, astronomical and agricultural phenomena; spheroid temples, created with Personal Power, in which rituals occur

to Quote Scott Cunningham

While this is not altogether false, the “swapmeet” part of it is somewhat off target – the more respected vendors are skillful and hard-working craftsmen – and there is a purely theatrical element as well. As an example of the opposite extreme, I offer the New Jersey Renaissance Kingdom, http://www.NJKingdom.com , which is more nearly akin to a live-action Babylon 5 than to anything described above. (Actually, our biggest weakness at present is that we don’t have enough vendors.)

(As to the question of “history”, it should be clear that there is very little “history” in the mythos of the Kingdom of Somerset, but we try not to do anything that wouldn’t be acceptable in authentic period fiction.)


John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

KrasH:

You quote Holzer, but who the heck is he and what the heck is his source? Is this his best guess based on a flakey oral tradition made up two decades ago by the al a carte mythos makers?

Holzer is or was an Author in the early 70’s, I only chose him becuase his book was laying right next to my PC when I read your post. I have about at least 6 other books that I can think of that have the same type of explantion. I’m positive if I went through all I have there would be more. What his sources were I have no idea, there is no “Source” for such information becuase of how it has been passed on.

I’m quite sure it is from old folklore passed down through generations, that does not make it any less relevant to this situation. I have never seen, heard or read anything like what Cecil is talking about in my last 1 1/2 years of reading on Wicca and the Neo-Pagan movement. Yep…only about 18 months of study on the subject, got a house full of books - a computer full of bookmarks. That is all I have to go on…
What this comes down to is, I disagree with Cecil’s explanation on the Flying on a Broom story.

I think it’s time for a new subject, I have to admit I am a little biased on the subject anyway.

Now…what is the next subject I’m starting to have fun here. I’m sure we will be taking the opposite sides of the fence on the next one to Moriah…heh

KrasH

Wow…lots of Typo’s in that last one, Sorry.

The question is not how legitimate Wicca is as a religion, but how historical it is. Does Wicca have any direct linneage from the old Celtic religions? No, those religions died out and left scant written records. Are the beliefs and practices of modern Wiccans the same as those of the ancient Celts? Not likely at all. We have no way of knowing what the Celts actually thought or exactly how they worshiped, though we can make wild guesses, and the most popular wild guess is that they had modern eco-feminist sensibilities.

If you want an accurate idea of the history of paganism, a Wiccan is generally the last person you’ll want to turn to. However, increasingly many of them have a realistic view of their own religion and realize that it is a modern invention that pays tribute to the pagans of antiquity. So long as that’s understood, there’s nothing especially illegitimate to Wicca’s claims as a religion.

I do, however, have a couple of points of contention that come up when the issue of modern pagans comes up.

First, many neo-pagans have adopted the term `witch’ to which they have no historical claim. Yet, they expect everyone else to accept their hijacking of the term, applying the new sense of the word universally and retroactively. I’ve rambled on this point a bit more extensively in the P.A.G.A.N. thread.

Second, pagans often speak as though they are superior somehow to Christians, and they belittle the Christian faith. That Christians belittle them is no excuse. I criticize Chrispies who commit this same offense all the time.

I don’t mean you can’t make fun of other religions. I’ve never heard of a religion I wouldn’t make fun of. I’m what you might call a secular humorist. But I don’t like to be haughty or condescending about another person’s religion, even when I feel the need to be seriously critical of it.

And one will often hear the claim that what makes pagans superior is that rather than having the stultifying and often contradictory moral principles of the Judeo Christian tradition, paganisms’ only principle is “An ye do no harm…” This is always given in the archaic, although the expression is probably modern in origin. If someone has evidence to the contrary, bring it up, but as far as I can tell it doesn’t predate John Stewart Mill’s classic formulation of it, which is known in philosophy as Mill’s Harm Principle.

Unfortunately, if you seriously want to claim that it’s the only principle you need, it’s woefully inadequate. For example, and this is only the tip of the iceberg, it does not account for what constitutes harm, whether harm done unintentionally counts, whether there is such a thing as fit retribution or redemption for harm done, or even whether not doing good for someone constitutes doing harm.

The principle of harm is a useful consideration, one of about a dozen classic ethical principles that apparently don’t get a mention in whatever book the neopagan’s version of the harm principle came from:

[ul][li]Personal benefit: acknowledge the extent to which an action produces beneficial consequences for the individual in question.[/li][li]Social benefit: acknowledge the extent to which an action produces beneficial consequences for society.[/li][li]Principle of benevolence: help those in need.[/li][li]Principle of paternalism: assist others in pursuing their best interests when they cannot do so themselves.[/li][li]Principle of harm: do not harm others.[/li][li]Principle of honesty: do not deceive others.[/li][li]Principle of lawfulness: do not violate the law.[/li][li]Principle of autonomy: acknowledge a person’s freedom over his/her actions or physical body.[/li][li]Principle of justice: acknowledge a person’s right to due process, fair compensation for harm done, and fair distribution of benefits.[/li][li]Rights: acknowledge a person’s rights to life, information, privacy, free expression, and safety.[/ul][/li]
It would be shallow to take even this entire list as an adequate set of moral principles. Judeo-Christian morality covers a lot more ground than this, and there have been thousands of years of hard thinking put into it. It is naieve and grossly concieted to think that all of this can be simply brushed away because it’s inferior to a one-liner of a moral principle whose author anticipated the advent of bumper stickers. If you think the harm principle is adequate, that’s fine. But don’t kid yourself that you’re the smart one.

FYI: This column made the Skeptic News today: www.skepticnews.com

Reading all the post’s on the P.A.G.A.N. thread, reading these here and chatting with people online has led me to one conclusion.

People are threatned in some way by those that think differently from themselves. I don’t just mean in a religous sense, I mean just as in everyday life. Are we that insecure in ourselves that we have to fear that wich we find different or not of the norm?

Do we just have a problem saying, I disagree with you but you are allowed to have thoughts of your own. Are new ideas or new ways of thinking that scary to the teaming masses of the world?

I better stop before this becomes a really long rant…

Sorry just had to get that off my chest.
Back to your regular Rants…