The idea that you are capable of coming up with, or even expressing, ideas that could threaten anyone is laughable.
Your arguments have been attacked on their merits; you can’t defend them, so you go to the usual last resort of the quack: accusing sceptics of being close minded. Closed to idiocy, unsupported babblings and fiction presented as fact, yes. Closed to reasonable arguments well-made, no. Threatened by some flakey mish-mash of new age gibberish.
ben
no
KrasH,
Thank-you for affirming what Cecil has written: There is no historical evidence of the wherefores of broomsticks; and what most Wiccans say on the matter is non-historical wishing, and therefore, most likely wrong.
Some Wiccan writing a book about it doesn’t make it true. Your typing it here doesn’t make it true.
It’s just a guess on your (and other Wiccan’s ) parts. And a really bad guess, IMO.
How the heck is jumping over a broomstick (or wand or any other type of stick) showing plants how high to grow? Wouldn’t you want plants to grow higher than you can jump? Were ancient Wiccans imbeciles?
To answer a question that wasnot yet addressed, Hans Holzer is basically the Art Bell of occult literature. He’s written quite a few books about the occult, UFOs, and etc., but without much documentation or critical thought behind them. To my mind, quoting Holzer about any occult subject is like asking Jerry Falwell to be critical about whether the Bible is true or not.
Saint Eutychus
www.disneyshorts.org
An early Wicca discussion from this board:
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000417.html
actually, also my first posted question…
I’ll get you my pretty… and your little dog, too!
I have defended all I have said, you have your own opinion and anything I would have to present on the subject would not make one bit of difference to you. As for presenting fiction as fact, all Folklore is fiction. We have no way of telling if any story passed down from person to person is accurate in any way shape or form. My statement had nothing to do with my religous views at all, I was simply refering to the majority of post’s that I have seen on any subject that is not of the norm, maybe I should not have posted it in this forum but that is were I was when I got the feeling.
Any author I would have chosen would be considered something other than an expert on the subject or some kind of fanatic. There is nothing that would convince any of you to even consider the alternative to what you currently believe and that is the last thing I would want to do.
As for Ancient Wiccans…there is no such thing or did you miss that one. I have never claimed it to be an ancient form of religion, I don’t know any Wiccans that have. It is based on many different Pagan types of worship. If you were to ask a Wiccan to describe there religion to you, unless you were talking to a group of people from the same coven you would get a slightly different answer. Much like you would if you were to talk to a Catholic or Baptist.
If you have ever read anything about the subject you would be more informed and have a better understanding of what you are trying to argue you about.
…jumping over a broom is used in a Hand Fasting ritual…get your facts straight before you attempt to insult me. Refer to my previous post for what I said on the broom issue.
I made a simple comment that Cecil’s information was not in anything I have ever read on this subject…anywere…but I have read in several books and writings the explanation I had posted.
one more thing…
*sunbear
Member posted 04-24-99 07:40 PM
Perhaps it’s not the right time of day for Wiccans? What I was aiming for is someone to come out and say: I used to be a Christian, now I’m a Wiccan and this is very real for me…or whatever you think it means to you.Or
perhaps you can describe a person you know who is serious about it.*
to answer that for you…Yes I was raised Southern Baptist. This is very real for me.
I think we can all agree to disagree on this subject.
KrasH
It’s not a question of belief. I don’t give a damn what you believe, whether you’re Moslem or Wicca or Baptist with Bells on. I’m just trying to prevent you from representing modern-day inventions as historical fact.
I’ve read history. I’ve read Celtic mythology. I know what they are. I don’t care what your hocus-pocus is, and I have no interest in reading it. Just don’t harm real history and real Celtic mythology by attempting to link them with your ramblings, and do what thou wilt.
I would also suggest that you didn’t burble about brooms and crops at one stage and then later defensively and stridently assert that it was a handfasting ritual, and linking it to crop rituals is an insult. It would make you look a little less silly if you got your story straight.
ben
It would make you look a little less silly if you got your story straight.
ben]]]]]]
Not about you Ben, just that old time Straight Dopers will understand why I’m ROTFLMAO
<— 3½¢
Let see if you can understand some plain english.
Jumping over a broom is what is used in a Hand Fasting Ritual…
I never said they Jumped over their brooms before…in fact here is what I said.
They would then ride the around the sacred circle astride the brooms ceremoniously, after which they would jump a few times with their brooms. The idea of this “sympathetic magic” was to "show the grain how high to grow
Jumping with would give the impression of flying…can you understand that now.
And once again, if Holzer is such a reliable source, he must have his source for that idea footnoted somewhere so we can know where he got the idea from. J. G. Frazer gave us a lot of fantastical notions as well, but at least he could document them. Please , if you can, provide us with his original source for this idea. Otherwise, we have to put it aside as some fantastical idea of his own. Holzer, as I said before, is a wonderful popularizer, but as a researcher, he leaves a lot ot be desired.
Personal to Gus … Ben … hee hee hee …
Saint Eutychus
www.disneyshorts.org
The only possible source for this information I found in another one of my books. This one is by Scott Cunningham & David Harrington. " The Magical Household"
He has a chapter on brooms in the book and talks about the galloping around on brooms being associated with Flying on a broom.
He list’s in his Bibliography a book by,
Wayland Hand, Anna Casetta and Sondra B. " A compendium of American Folklore " Three volumes 1981 G.K., HALL Boston.
There is also a listing for a book by, T. Knowlson " The origins of Poplular Superstitions and Customs " 1910 T. Werner Laurie, LTD., London
I do not have a copy of those to quote from but I will find them if possible and see what they have to say on the subject.
I forgot one other thing…
I only used Holzer cause it was close, He has nothing in his book that shows a source. The book just had the information I was looking for at that moment so I used it as a source.
Forgive me for jumping into the fray at this stage of the game . . . but I’m really having a tough time getting a handle on what the big deal is here – the incessant prating on about Baptists and broomsticks, black cats and Celts. All I know is this:
I bought my first wicca in 1976, and it’s been the most durable, comfortable, attractive deck furniture I’ve ever owned.
It’s not information, it’s nonsense. The fact that it’s in one of your silly books doesn’t make it true. You’ve been told often enough the difference between reality and fiction and are persistently, stubbornly unwilling to accept it, yet you have the temerity to accuse other people of being close-minded and “threatened” by your mystical gibberish.
ben
I can’t decide whether I should move this to Great Debates or the Pit…
Send it to the Pit, Jill. If they can’t play nice, GD doesn’t want 'em either.
Yah but wait a minute… what does the
desired height of the crops have to do with
handfasting (or HandFasting, if you prefer)?
As far as handfasting goes, I’m more
familiar with slaves in the American south
jumping over a broomstick in lieu of a
wedding ceremony, because there wasnt always
an African-American preacher around when
couples wanted to get hitched. The sources
I’ve seen said “jumping the broom” comes
from AFRICA, not Celtia.
And I still like the comment someone made in
the previous broomstick thread - something
to the effect of, “How the hell were the
crops supposed to notice that a witch was
jumping to a certain height?”
Lyxdesics of the lowrd untie!
Send it to the pit…this is not a great debate. There are too many people who do not bother to read whole posts before going into a rant.
Hand Fasting = Wedding you are correct on that. And no one has said that Wicca is based soley on Celtic Traditions. It’s source are varied and can come from many different walks of life. The only reason Hand Fasting came up was becuase one poster tried to confuse jumping over a broom with jumping in the air while astride a broom, meaning riding it like a hobby horse.
** posted 11-23-1999 11:22 AM **
*It’s not information, it’s nonsense. The fact that it’s in one of your silly books doesn’t make it true. You’ve been told often enough the difference between reality and fiction and are persistently, stubbornly unwilling to accept it, yet you have the temerity to accuse other people of being close-minded and “threatened” by your mystical gibberish.
ben*
My sources are not good enough no matter were they come from. My last post contained 2 books that are not on the subject of Wicca or any type of Magik but are books on Folklore and their origins. If those books are not up to your standards for reference then that is your problem. I have never spouted any Mystical Gibberish to anyone here, I have simply posted the information I have available to me at this time. You choose to see it as gibberish instead of actual information, you have my sources…do with them what you will.
Also you decided that my remark on people being afraid of things that are different was about Wicca, it was a generalization of how people react when someone says something they don’t believe in…It had nothing to do with one perticular thing.
Any more discussion on this point is useless…
My only complaint is that this topic has gotten out of hand. There is an awful lot of judging going on here. Why does anyone care what other people believe in? Does it matter that much to you that this forum has to go on endlessly about broomsticks meaning anything if your faith doesn’t support it? Faith is a personal issue. Why be mean about it? Ben, you disturb me with your heartless comments (can you say HITLER?), and Moriah, you’re just downright immature.
You both go against your own rule.
“We have one basic rule: Don’t be a jerk.”
Quote:
“What a complete moron. Hey, Banshee/Krash, remember, here on the SDMB, you’re dealing with intelligent people. Not the idiots you usually hang with. Why don’t you
perform a Raise IQ spell on yourself, or maybe conjure up a clue. Coming back on the
forum in a new name and repeating the same nonsense isn’t going to convince anyone
here – remember, we’re not dumb, like you.”
–Moriah
Another one:
"Were ancient Wiccans imbeciles? --Moriah
One from Ben:
“It’s not information, it’s nonsense. The fact that it’s in one of your silly books doesn’t make it true. You’ve been told often enough the difference between reality and fiction and are persistently, stubbornly unwilling to accept it, yet you have the temerity to accuse other people of being close-minded and “threatened” by your mystical gibberish.”–Ben
What is “reality” Ben? Are you an expert on that matter? Huh? I didn’t think so.
I’m really sorry that there is so much hatred in the world. Moriah, grow up. Ben, get a life and keep it in your own personal reality.
With people such as you two, humanity really doesn’t have a chance.