Are you kidding?
Do you seriously not get that there are different beliefs about sharia among different muslims?
The counter to this is; do you realize how much fear and anger towards the United States is rooted almost entirely in incidents of violence taken in the name of America and its interests?
I realize it’s not easily seen from within, but the perception of the United States in other countries, especially those that aren’t close American allies, is that’s it’s an aggressive, murderously militaristic country. Even if we limit ourselves just to living memory - say, since the Second World War - the USA has invaded or bombed a LOT of places.
You do not appear to be a scholar of Islaic jurisprudence, either. In fact, you point to laws against murder and its punishment that discuss equal retribution, but nothing you have posted and nothing to which you linked makes any provision for “honor killing.”
If you have read any of the stories on honor killing, (that do appear with distressing frequency), you should be able to come up with at least one citation where a murderer appealed to Sharia as a defense.
Again, you are confusing a cultural practice with a law and now you appear to be trying to throw up a smokescreen to avoid addressing the claim you made. Note that Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philipines, and other countries with Muslim majorities or large Muslim minorities are not noted for the frequency of honor killings. It is a curse that extends from the Maghreb across the Middle East to India, that is cultural in nature (regardless of religion) and is not based in Sharia law.
More information:
As part of the islamization of the penal code of 1860, the sections dealing with physical injury, manslaughter and murder were revised in 1990 with the promulgation of the “Qisas and Diyat Ordinance” subsequently passed by parliament in 1997 as the “Qisas and Diyat Act” (“Retribution and Compensation Act”).23 The amendment had far-reaching consequences for the legal prosecution of homicide in general and **honour killings in particular. **
Quote the citation rather than ducking behind a nonsense question.
Even if I do … is there any way of knowing which version is correct? Especially when you have important Ayatollahs issuing fatwas on people for drawing cartoons, making movies or writing books. Which version is the correct one?
See #65.
I named the law, talked about it’s consequences, etc. … if you are still not convinced, the least you could do is Google the law some more before asking me to provide citations that satisfy you.
What do you say about top muslim leaders including Ayatollahs with millions of followers who issued a fatwah against Salman Rushdie based on Blasphemy laws? So, in this case, sharia allows murder?
You are partly correct. Politicians do tend to denounce honor killing. But in the case of Pakistan, they have not been able to pass laws that deal with this issue. Pakistan operates on Islamic Law, and honor killings are tied into the laws that I have quoted many time already.
I think the honor killings topic has run it’s course. What claim did I make that I am not addressing?
Is there any way of knowing which version of Christianity is correct? Or which version of Judaism? Yes, some muslims advocate for and do bad things. But not most muslims… not by far.
Some interpretations of sharia allow murder. Not all.
Nothing in your link provides a citation where Sharia promotes or encourages or even accepts honor killings. What you have provided simply supports my point that cultural mores result in local interpretations of civil or criminal law that excuse honor killings without actually pointing to Sharia, itself.
For example:
Honour killing outside the world of Islam
Now, do you have an actual citation to what you consider Sharia that promotes or accepts honor killing? Or are you going to simply continue to promote ignorance?
From the third page of your cite:
Also:
So, according to the cite you provided, honor killings are both illegal in Pakistan, and not inherently linked to the Islamic religion. Do you have any more cites that completely destroy your own argument? It makes things a lot easier for the rest of us when you do our work for us.
As to the two sentences you lifted, without context, from a thirty page report - the bit you quoted doesn’t describe legalized honor killings, it describes flaws in the Pakistani justice system that makes prosecuting honor killings (which, again, are illegal in Pakistan per your own cite) much more difficult. This is, obviously, a serious problem, one that’s exacerbated by both an ingrained sexism in Pakistani culture, and a damaging conflation of religion and government. It is, however, not a situation that’s going to be improved by misstating the actual problem, or assigning to the Pakistani legal system elements that do not, in fact, exist.
While I’m at it, why are you so fixated on Pakistan? Less than 2% of the Muslims in the world live there. Even if every thing you’ve said about Pakistani justice were true, so what? How does that prove anything about Islam as a whole?
Crap, I am going to just concede the point so consider it withdrawn.
Back in the run up to the Iraq war there were some debates on this board on US complicity with them having weapons of mass destruction and somebody posted a link to congressional testimony showing that we had sent them nerve gas chemical precursors. I have conducted a dozen or so searches for both the thread and the congressional testimony and found zip. My Google-fu is low today.
Whatever, I was being a bit hyperbolic as the OP was ridiculous IMHO.
How does it destroy my argument? There have been thousands of honor killings that have gone un-punished. How could that have happened so easily?
Every cite I have provided says that Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, passed in Pakistan, and based on Islamic Law ( because Pakistan is governed on Islamic Law) allow honor killings. They have tried to repeal this law but have failed.
It is illegal yet allowed under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, and very difficult to prosecute. Seems like you find this a little hard to understand. Keep in mind that the end result is thousands of honor killings that are not prosecuted.
I am not. I merely pointed about a few things about Pakistan, an Islamic country and was attacked from all directions. Even you, find it hard to understand that … at best, honor killings are loosely allowed in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
I have provided many already. Time to move off honor killings.
Since you seem to know a lot about Sharia, can you tell me if Sharia allows murder for Blasphemy? The Ayatollahs think so …
What percentage allow murder? How many interpretations are there? Cite?
No. It is illegal, but cultural factors impede its prosecution. Nothing in Qisas and Diyat permit the killing of one person to satisfy honor. Even the examples you cited were those of changes to the execution of a sentence for a murder based on a system of “equal” response, not the exculpation of a murder for reasons of “honor.”
However, honor killing is still not supported by Sharia based on all your evidence and is contradicted by everyone else’s evidence.
No. you have thrown up bullshit and misinterpreted citations to support your error.
Now you want to “move off” honor killings because your error has been demonstrated.
Instead, I would conclude that since you got so much wrong on this point, we may safely ignore any future errors you post regarding Sharia (or Islam).
Moving off Pakistan and honor killings …
What do Muslims in UK really think about murder and Islam? Killing for religion is justified, say third of Muslim students.
Where do these ideas come from? Especially in the Muslims living in the Western World?
The report’s authors found that Islamic societies on campus, operating under the umbrella of the Federation of Student Islamic Societies, exert a strong influence on many of Britain’s 90,000 Muslim students. A quarter of them belong to Islamic societies and their views are often more extreme.