Because we’re everything good in the world, and our enemies represent everything bad in the world.
:dubious:
That’s not what they said at the time:
“Mahmud’s court historian Al-Utbi viewed Mahmud’s expeditions as a jihad to propagate Islam and extirpate idolatry.”[4][5][6]
“Sabuktagin, the Turkish ruler of Ghazni and father of Mahmud, ‘set as his goal the expulsion of the Hindus from the Kabul valley and Gandhara (Khandar), as the vale of Peshawar was still called. His son and successor, the Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, continued his work, carrying the so called, “holy war” against the Hindus into India.’”[9]
At no point did I ascribe these problems solely to the Muslim population. We are on a thread about Islam in the UK. I mentioned a number of problems I believe made worse by a sizeable Muslim population in Western European states. You claim some of these issues are issues of classic youth violence, wider inequality, wider gender issues etc. However, im 100% certain that you don’t know this for a fact. You are simply hoping they are not Muslim related issues. It is my opinion these problems are made much worse by a large Muslim population. I think the big unknown is whether or not this increasing Muslim population can integrate and right itself, or whether it will descend into a clusterfuck of Islamic municipalities and city states. The canary in the coal mine here is probably France. In France the rest of Western Europe sees its future.
I think some of the recent attacks in Western Europe may be telling. Some of the attacks were carried out by individuals who were less than faithful adherents to Islam for much of their lives. They ended their miserable lives in a blaze of Islamic glory. We have a convergence of classic Western economic & social problems and violent religion. How this plays out in the wider Islamic European population in the near future no-one knows, and certainly no-one on this internet forum knows. I simply suggest it’s not unreasonable of me to propose it may all descend into one god awful mess; a mess that may include local areas of Sharia dominance.
Why that sounds like you don’t really have it, then; at least not the way the scaremongers make it out. What you describe sounds like the current situation in most countries where there’s a din torah. Yet, I’m not hearing calls for a ban on Jews immigrating nor a call for Jews to be expelled from western countries.
What about the conservative Republicans in the U.S. who are trying to force their religion on everyone by law? When are you going to call for expulsion of all Christians?
Islamophobes are not doing their so-called argument any favor by misrepresenting aspects of Islam nor by outright manufacturing scary stuff to get the “real Americans/French/English/etc.” riled up.
You wouldn’t happen to have substantiation for these allegations, would you?
Yes, yes I do.
The role of the authorities in the Rotherham abuse scandal:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
*The report found: "Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought as racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.
The inquiry team found that in the early-2000s when a group of professionals attempted to monitor a number of children believed to be at risk, “managers gave little help or support to their efforts”
Prof Jay said the first of these reports was “effectively suppressed” because senior officers did not believe the data. The other two were ignored, she said.*
FGM:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/06/female-genital-mutilation-foreign-crime-common-uk
FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1985, and since 2003 anyone taking a child out of the UK to be cut faces 14 years in prison. However, there has yet to be a single conviction. Two people were arrested in November accused of carrying out FGM on a five-week-old baby but, according to the Metropolitan police, there was “insufficient evidence to proceed”.
Hard facts about how many girls are being cut, where and by whom, are scarce because, according to campaigners, the issue has been neglected by successive governments scared of confronting so-called cultural practices.
A report last year on FGM by a coalition of medical groups, trade unions and human rights organisations estimates that there are 66,000 victims of FGM in England and Wales and warns that more than 24,000 girls under 15 are at risk. More than 2,000 victims of FGM sought treatment in London hospitals alone in the past three years.
The No Go Zones are difficult one to prove. I believe there are no official No Go Zones anywhere in Europe. However, I am as certain as can be that there are many “just don’t go there unless we really, really have to” zones. Zones that paramedics, municipal employees, firemen and many other people dare not visit unless they use a variety of high security measures; zones which are currently undergoing a combination of economic distress and Islamic inspired “activism”. These zones did not exist 30 years ago to the extent they exist today. Will these places improve in the future, or become worse? Only time will tell.
I think this all suggests Governments in Western States can easily turn a blind eye to some very ugly nastiness in our midst. That Constutional practices, human rights legislation and laws are conveniently swept under the carpet if the political desire exists. I can very easily see a situation where a Constitution fails to prevent Sharia Law taking hold in certain areas of a country. We have already shown an ability to put up with similarly unfortunate things for decades.
For the rape scandal, how is Islam to blame for that? For tne FGM, how is Islam to blame for that? For the “no go” zones, why don’t you admit you have no evidence?
I don’t believe I blamed Islam for the rape scandal. All I did was to use the term Muslim to describe the vast majority of those doing the raping. I suspect religion and culture played its part but at no point did I directly blame religous doctrine, or religous leaders, for the rapes and the scandal.
I have enough evidence in the existence of “really try not go there unless we really have to zones” for my own satisfaction. These exist to varying degrees in just about all Western countries. These areas have existed in the US for decades. They are appearing in Europe too. The big question is how much more serious they are becoming with an influx of refugees and a growing 2nd & 3rd generation Muslim underclass. It’s a question I can’t easily answer and im convinced neither can you.
Do you care to share what rigor “to [your] own satisfaction” is?
There is a rape problem too:
Rapes are rampant in Sweden, following years of Muslim immigration. An alarmingly high percentage of the victims are children.
Rapes in Sweden has been soaring since the country started to take in large numbers of Muslim migrants and refugees.
48 percent of German women say that they are afraid of walking in certain areas in their own neighborhood. 44 percent of them believe that their personal security is threatened by immigration from “Islamic countries”.
According to statistics, 92 percent of all severe rapes (violent rapes) are committed by migrants and refugees. 100 percent of all attack rapes (where victim and attacker had no previous contact) are committed by that same group.
The top-10 list of rapists’ national background shows only one non-Islamic country (Chile). Most rapists have Iraqi background, followed by refugees and migrants from Afghanistan, Somalia, Eritrea, Syria, Gambia, Iran, Palestine, Chile and Kosovo.
Migrants and refugees from Afghanistan are 79 times more likely to commit rape than Swedes.
https://www.10news.one/swedens-islam…-are-children/
One of the rare ones that was even found and prosecuted…
MUSLIM MIGRANT ANALLY RAPES TEENAGER, GETS ONLY TWO MONTHS JAIL
A Swedish court sentenced a Muslim migrant to only two months in jail after being convicted of anally raping a 13-year-old girl.
The court also ordered Mohammed to pay the equivalent of $2800 to the victim and also gave him probation, claiming his sentences for child rape and sexual exploitation should be lenient because the Syrian migrant claimed he was 17 when the rape occurred in Dec. 2016 at a school in Jämtland County, which is in the middle of Sweden.
You have a belief these problems are worse than they otherwise should be. You think the Muslim population is the reason. Your reasoning is faulty and exacerbates the issue by fostering intercommunity mistrust.
Take FGM for example. I think FGM becomes more common in the UK as more people believe it is an important part of their cultural (more specifically religious) responsibilities. The people who feel this way are nearly 100% Muslim and they most likely believe their religion specifies FGM as a practice. But the reverse certainly isn’t true. FGM is not prevalent in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran, or Iraq. These countries contribute a majority of the Muslims in the UK. The Somali population probably does have a problem with high rates of FGM and there are many immigrants from Somalia to the UK.
So now we go around talking about how the Muslim makes FGM worse. Although true in one respect, from your point of view where you lump all these people from completely different parts of the world together, how are they going to take it? You will get many communities that do not practice FGM and think it is abhorrent mistrusting you because you blame their religion for this problem.
Now maybe all your talk results in real efforts to limit or ban immigration from these countries. Well, you probably didn’t reduce the rate of FGM in the short term. Over generations, it might decline if the ban is maintained. Of course, it would happen at a faster rate if the mutual distrust you inadvertently support didn’t help to keep the immigrants isolated. And then there are all the people who might have immigrated and assimilated or wanted to save their daughters from the knife but are stuck in Somalia. This scenario is far more realistic than your dystopian French hellhole, but regardless of dystopias or FGM, mistrust caused by ascribing problems to a group of people as a stereotype doesn’t prevent the problems. It enhances their probability of occurring.
If your preference is a secular government, then support secular government. If you want to stop FGM, then fight FGM.
As your link noted, the war in your reference occurred in the eleventh century, not during the initial invasions of the eighth century. That falls within the period about which I already indicated “Once Islam was established in a number of areas, (Iberia, Northern India), some Muslim rulers copied the Christian practice of conversion by force, . . .”
I am not unduly concerned with FGM. I would really prefer it to stop though. I would hope the authorities take adequate action to prevent its practice both in the UK and on UK residents, but I am not going to lose any sleep over the matter. I simply pointed to FGM as an example of things that go on in the UK that the authorities would prefer to keep hidden. I did this in response to another poster who suggested states with liberal Western constitutions simply would never allow Sharia Law; that our laws & institutions would prevent such practices. I listed FGM as one practice that is probably tolerated on a semi-official basis in the UK. If mutilating the genitalia of 5 year old girls is sorta, kinda tolerated in the UK then so too can Sharia.
Again, I quite freely admitted many of these problems are not solely religous in nature, that they may be cultural. I did not say any of these practices were a problem within the entire Islamic community. The difference in rate of FGM in Pakistani and Somali UK communities is of little relevance. It is the semi-official acceptance in the UK which is relevant.
Sorta.
The rise in reported rapes occurred with the arrival of immigrants and the simultaneous
revisions to Swedish law that re-defined a number of actions as rape that had not previously been so defined. In other words, two coincidental events occurred to give the appearance of a connection that does not actually exist. It is entirely possible that a number of immigrants have responsible for the increase, but despite the laws that include more actions as rape, the increase has been in the tens, not the hundreds or thousands.
All I did was state fact.
No you, at best, you stated your opinion of facts.
no, that would be your rant that followed. sharia law is practiced in the UK.
So, If we want to stamp out FGM, shouldn’t we concentrate our preventative effort and criticism on the communities and cultures where this happens?
By your previously stated logic you would choose to only criticise it in abstract and in general and so by not being specific you are including the Pakistan, Indian and Bangladeshi communities in there as well. How is that helpful?
Yes, but it is far from clear if the guy who first established a Muslim presence in India did so primarily by force:
"There is controversy regarding the conquest and subsequent conversion of Sindh. This is usually voiced in two antagonistic perspectives viewing Qasim’s actions:[11]
-
Coercive conversion has been attributed to early historians such as Elliot, Cousens, Majumdar and Vaidya.[11] They hold the view that the conversion of Sindh was necessitated. Qasim’s numerical inferiority is said to explain any instances of apparent religious toleration, with the destruction of temples seen as a reflection of the more basic, religiously motivated intolerance.[11]
-
Voluntary conversion has been attributed to Thomas W. Arnold and modern Muslim historians such as Habib and Qureishi. They believe that the conquest was largely peaceful, and the conversion entirely so, and that the Arab forces enacted liberal, generous and tolerant policies.[11] These historians mention the “praiseworthy conduct of Arab Muslims” and attribute their actions to a “superior civilizational complex”."[29]
Is it true the topless beaches of France are basically no more and thats partly because so many immigrants with different idea of dress codes (ex. the burkini vs the topless)?