I wonder if our fight against ignorance can be classified as a jihad-since it IS just and right, I suppose.
Princhester…you believe everything you read?
Just because something is in print does not mean it reflects the views of the people. I agree that there are many who justifiably hate America, but there are many more who’d give their eye teeth to get in here. Was that newspaper state-sponsored, by chance?
Naw. Couldn’t be.
Could you list some of the actions by the state of Israel which you consider to be terroristic? I’m not disputing you, and I’m not looking for a debate on the subject. I’m well aware that, in any conflict between nations/peoples/states, there’s likely to be good bit of wrongdoing on both sides. If it’s not too much trouble, I’d like some specifics.
Here’s a couple examples. Before this goes any further, though, in general, I agree that there’s been wrongdoing on both sides. In general I use the Webster’s definition of terrorism: the use of force to demoralize, subjugate and/or intimidate, esp when used as a political weapon or policy. That said, here goes:
Use the NY times, search in the past year for Israel and helicopter- I can’t get the links to work so I’ll paraphrase.
On Nov 1, 200, Israel did preemptive strikes against the Al Fatah offices in Ramallah and Nablus and the headquarters of Yasir Arafat’s security guards in Gaza, killing 5 Palestinians. These strikes are called ‘pinpoint’ operations by Israeli army officials.
On Feb 14, 2001, Massoud Ayyad(a senior Palestinian security officer) was killed by two helicopter gunships firing rockets at his car.
In general, the bulldozing or dynamiting of the homes of Palestinians who are suspected/convicted of terrorism in Israel, regardless of whether or not they have family in these homes.
By the way, I’m not just singling out Israel- other countries have engaged in this type of behavior as well.
You do know that we always got the families out of the houses first, do you?
But you know - you’re right. We ahould emulate the way the ecivilized nations of the world fight wars, and carpet-bomb them.
You all seem to have forgotten a very basic fact: wars aren’t between armies; they’re between nations. Only a country which hasn’t fought a war on its own territory for 150 years would forget that.
One assumed so, yes. However, destroying the property as an (apparent) means of intimidation fits the definition of terrorism stated above.
Are you saying that the situation in Israel is a civil war? (This question is not sarcastic) Is Israel in a declared war at the moment? If the Palestinians and Isrealis are at war, it raises questions (perhaps for another debate) about the treatment of prisoners (on both sides). Would they be prisoners, spies, or POWs?
For the final time, I would like to say that I did not say that Isreal is the only country that employs these tactics. I chose it as a counterpoint to the original post, which seemed to imply that only Islamic states use terrorism. Also, the specific instances were in response to a question asking for examples of Isreali actions. Examples can also be given for other states (such as Rwanda).
If it weren’t for the Islamic philosophers of the middle ages who helped re-introduce Aristotle to European philosophers, perhaps the Europeans would have spent a few more centuries debating such trivial things as the meaning of the filioque clause.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have their share of nut cases (i.e. fundamentalists) who can’t see the forest for the trees. These fundamentalists say and do all sorts of wacky things that make the rest of us sigh and mutter “Oy vey.” As far as I’m concerned, Randall Terry and the Ayatollah were cut out of the same mold, and attempts to equate fanaticism with piety are the highest blasphemy. I suppose that some folks would really get bored to tears in heaven if they couldn’t have the pleasure of watching all their enemies writhing in the flames of eternal damnation.
The Taliban are not only an insult to the Islamic faith–they also suck as dictators. I mean, if you’re going to be a dictator, at least let people have a little fun, say, 3 or 4 times a year. Have a nice little festival, like one of those military parades the Soviets would have. Let the people at least have the impression that they are enjoying themselves for a while. But no, these Taliban goons want to make Afghanistan into a stone age theocracy with no art or culture. Don’t you dare do anything fun, especially if it has anything to do with sex or the use of electricity…or you’re going to hell after we execute you.
No - it’s not terrorism. Terrorism would be killing the family, or killing another family at random while avoiding any valid military targets. Tearing down the houses is indeed a form of collective punishment, and it is neither fair nor especially nice. But it works. And if doing it prevents Israeli civilians or soldiers from getting killed, then we’ll keep on doing it.
Of course, it may not be as effective as we might hope. There is, in fact, a great deal of discussion of the practice in civilian and military circles. If they decide it doesn’t work, then it’ll stop.
Israel is still at war - technically, if not actually - with Syria, Lebanon (so much as such a nation actually exists), Iraq and perhaps Libya and Iran. As for the situation with the Palestinians, it’s tricky. They were never actually an independent country, so we couldn’t really declare war on them; but they were never Israeli population, either. If it helps, they declared war on us. Now that they have their own semi-autonomous government and army of 40,000 troops the situation has become even messier. There are certain aspects of a civil war in the conflict, as well as an international war, a guerilla war and a popular uprising. It’s complex, and possibly without precident. One thing is for sure - both sides are under an existential threat.
As to weather they are prisoners, spies or POWs - we’re not so sure ourselves. A little bit of all three, I guess. They’re called by whatever name either side finds useful at the time. The war, after all, is mainly one of rhetoric.
Harkening back to the OP myself, I agree with you - Islam is no more violent than any other religion. The Middle-East conflict, after all, is not religious; it’s political.
Myself, I have no personal argument with Moslems or Arabs. Both sides are working in their own self-interest, playing what very well may be a zero-sum game.
Yeah, Astroboy, that is correct. That is correct! They came up with:
Math
the concept of zero
architecture styles
pollenation methods
irrigation
loads of chemistry
trade to the orient
All while Europe was trying to fight it’s way out of a paper bag.
And the Jihad doesn’t have to be an external war; it is the battle that is the test of faith.
Well, what was the name of the woman leader in Pakistan?
Also, since you asked, I was born a Muslim in the Middle East. So, I consider myself a recovering muslim.
To COLLUNSBURY…perhaps it’s time you pursued your dream of making cheese.
"Islam as a religion seems to be by it’s nature gentle and peaceful. It’s muslims who are such nutcases- "
Let’s get some terms straight here as Billy seems a little confused. I have seen quite a few people who do not understand Muslim and Islam so it is an honest mistake.
Islam: A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and Mohammed as the chief and last prophet of God.
Muslim: A believer in or adherent of Islam.
Islam is the religion, those who follow it faithfully can be called Muslims. I believe that Muslim translates into “one who submits”.
How many people here have studied the Qu’ran? Any who have would know that one of the first things the Qu’ran says is that Christians and Muslims are brothers and should not war against each other. It goes on to say that men may marry the daughters of the other. It states that there should be peace between the two as they believe in the same god.
I don’t see this happening.
Any member of either religion that wages war against the other because of differences in their respective religions cannot really be called Christian or Muslim.
I know quite a number of Muslims and have become really good friends with a man I used to work with. He is a devout Muslim. We spend our time discussing a great many things and quite often our topic is religion. He knows little of anything else except Islam while Feynn the Agnostic has studied many religions. We both learn during our exchanges and he knows that I disagree with him on many things just as he disagrees with me. He is highly respected by his peers and is seen by many as a leader and teacher.
On the issue of having many wives he states that it is impossible for a man to treat each one exactly the same so a man should only have one wife. A man is to treat his wife as a part of his own body, she is to be revered and respected above all others. My friends sees it as his duty to provide for his wife and children’s every need. The bible asks the same of it’s followers although I can’t remember the chapter and verse. I have seen how he treats his wife and he is true to his statements. He has two sons that are handicapped and to many “Muslim” men this would be seen as a curse from Allah himself. The Qu’ran teaches that those who serve the less fortunate deserve the highest regard as theirs is truly a noble and honourable calling. Mistreating anyone in this situation would be defying the will of Allah yet it happens both here and in the Islamic world.
He jokes that I am already a Muslim but haven’t realized it. I take this as a compliment due to the deep respect I have for him.
He and most of his brothers in Islam here condemn the actions of the fanatics who justify their actions in the name of Allah. He does not follow those who include Hadith and Sadith (oral and written traditions) as additions to the holy Qu’ran. Those who use the Qu’ran as a political tool to subjucate their citizens are also condemned. If it is not written in the Qu’ran it is not the word of god.
My friend is probably the most honourable person I have ever met. If I was to give him a huge sum of money for safekeeping I would not worry about him taking a single penny. If he gives you his word on something you can know that he will follow through on his promises. He might be like this if he was a Christian, Jew or Buddist but he happens to be Muslim. I deal with many Muslim merchants and they are nothing but honest and honourable in their dealings with me. I prefer to deal with them over any others due to this.
I must point out how the media shapes our perceptions. It bothers my friend that Muslims are nearly always portrayed as the bad guy and there is a disparaging lack of positive press. It’s always the Islamic terrorists that make the eleven o clock news so when someone says Muslim or Islam the image that comes to mind is one of a gun wielding fanatic.
You don’t often see the image of the devoted father and husband who is devout in his religion and an asset to his community.
Someone said it better than I ever could some time ago, you all know the words…
"Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today…
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace… " John Lennon
I wish…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Morpheous *
Benazir Bhutto.
Then you should know better than to post silliness, over generalizations like you did.
Or, if you want to blow off steam go to the Pit, give some context and rant away. Here, arguments are expected to be logical and well-supported.
I understand having a beef. What I don’t understand is slamming your ex-religion excessively. Want to make a good case, do so on factual grounds w/o overgeneralization.
I.e. Piss Off? I so wish, but the secret of the cheesemakers escapes me.
I’m guessing that you mean algebra, which was indeed invented by the Arabs. Other branches of mathematics were well known in ancient times. Geometry, for example.
The Arabs were not the first to use the zero. While the Arabic cultures of the Middle Ages are responsible for the widespread dissemination of the zero, including its introduction to Europe, the concept of the zero was created in India. FTR, so were the other nine Arabic numbers.
Of course, as Collounsbury pointed out the last time I did this, the Arabs certainly deserve credit for “vulgarizing” these concepts. Math with Roman numerals is not fun.
I’m curious about this, as I thought irrigation had been well known by even the Sumerians. What are you referring to?
As a Catholic, I would guess the blank stare would probably come from having never heard of the Cult of Thecla. What is it?
What have y’all been smoking. The Koran is pretty clear about how to treat unbelievers:
That don’t sound like lollipops and gumdrops to me, folks.
I agree with everything else Princhester said too, Israel is basically the thorn causing the infection. (I realize there are alot of patriotic Jews on this board who love the reality of Israel and hopes it makes sense somehow, but I just wish it was not such a rotten-stupid religious idea that makes America an openly fascist nation). I encourage all to read Robert D. Kaplan’s The Arabists to see what happened to those in the state department who spoke Arabic and were experts in middle-east affairs after the Jewish lobby slowly purged it after WW2 (yes, they purged the entire state department of “Arabists” which was their condescending word for it). Jews control all middle-east policies, and kings are paid dearly for it through the price of oil directly. As such, America is a Jewish puppet state, not the other way around.
Philosophocles was right too. Islam at one time saved many
western texts, including medical and philosophical texts. It seems Islam’s current problems with the Taliban are absolutely identical to what Christian emperors decreed in the 4th and 5th century to destroy all pagan art and temples. Anything depicting nudity or plurality of gods was automatically destroyed in little pieces. It was religious art, although I’m sure a fanatical Christian (one who argues one sect over another) would disagree even today (Note: Christians are mostly all fanatics–more so today than in the immediate past).
America’s own “Taliban” are the ones who want to help supply parochial schools for everyone and put the ten commandments in school shrines. They suck worse than the Taliban, because they should know better, they were taught science and reasoning, and still insist on being provincial zealots and promote one religion over another. Anyone who believes in Armageddon is worse than the Taliban.
Note: The Shah ran a secret police force called SAVAK, which is estimated to have tortured or murdered anyone who advocated American style democracy too loudly, including students who were educated in the US (the estimates of torture are in the hundreds of thousands). America not only allowed this, but passively encouraged it and sold the torture devices too. So, the only place to turn for revolutionaries was Islam, since everyone else was brutally discouraged. Islamic fundamentalism reawakened in the 1970’s after realizing America’s secret policy was to prop up a democracy in Israel, by giving money directly, and prop up oil monarchies surrounding Israel, by using arms trades. Why this was policy is fairly obvious, it is easier to control a hostile oil corrupt nation from the top down and it was feared that Soviet communism would invade any country not controlled by a dictator. The middle-east is considered a weird chess game to the CIA, who may or may not control both sides of the board for a Christian war agenda. Saddam Hussein is even one of the CIA’s pieces. I know it’s hard to believe and it defies logic, but that is the business they are in.
And that’s telling you how to fight people who oppress you. Fight with those who fight with you, but don’t “exceed the limits”…there are rules to war. But, if they desist, and there is no persecution, stop fighting. While those lines aren’t sweetness and light, they’re reasonable.
Do you mean evangelical religions cannot be peaceful, then?
The Suras you quoted also direct worshippers to be forgiving and to cease hostilities against their enemies when they surrender. Note that this is not conversion.
Non Islamic, non polytheistic people (Dhimmis) were generally left to their religion, though they did have to pay extra taxes. As in any religion, there were times when various fanatical sects of Islam practiced forced conversion, but these coerced choices were not generally seen by the other Moslems as valid. Some, in contrast to the usual sentence of death for recantation, were allowed to resume their former faith.
Absolutely true, Brian, and what’s more - we know where you live.
The Bible isn’t exactly roses and sunshine either.
So what?
However, prior to modern times, there wasn’t much tolerance for pagans. Tolerance was extended only to Christians, Jews and (IIRC) Zoroastrians. The Muslims who invaded India conducted genocidal campaigns against the Hindus and Buddhists which rivaled the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin. In Sudan today Muslims are fighting a war of extermination and enslavement against Christians and pagans. Blaming all Muslims today for this, however, is no more fair than blaming all Christians today for the witch hunts of medieval Europe and the suppression of the old pagan religions of the Roman empire.
Granted, the Muslims of earlier centuries were more tolerant both in principal and in practice than the Christians, but both Christians and Muslims were far less tolerant than the pre-Christian pagans. It seems that the rise of monotheism was a serious setback for religious tolerance in the West.