Funny you should mention that, Alessan. I overcame my local cult, what’s your excuse?
True and … depended on the power-position.
I’ve seen this kind of langauge and comparision from Hindu sources. However, academic sources I have read painted a different picture: early conquest quite violent, standard massacres of the age --I think Hitler and Stalin genocidal claims are both ahistorical and political-- followed by a settling down in the 2nd and 3rd generations of rule to the usual, we tax the fuck out of you but otherwise usually leave you alone. Given what one saw in pre-partition India, with mixed comunities and the like, I have a hard time giving credence to the more lurid claims.
I don’t find this to be an accurate description. We have southerners, largely Xtian and Pagan (unclear lines there) with a Muslim sector in the South-East, fighting against an Islamist (Fundamentalist) backed (until recently, at-Turabi just signed a pact with Garang, the most important southern leader. This got him jailed) government.
The abuses by the Islamists are nasty. Slave trading does exist. As do “compelled” (forced, pressured, at least not voluntary) conversions. However, to describe this as a war of extermination of Muslims against Xtians & pagans is to badly misunderstand the war (and makes the Muslim companent of the opposition hard to understand, as at-Turabi’s recent pact with Garang). It’s more about water politics, power politics and regional seperatism – although religion clearly plays an important, even key role. Deep-seated Northerner prejudice on skin color and religious bases is a big problem of course.
Hmm, I don’t think this is a historically valid comparision.
I know I’m coming into this late, but nonetheless…
Are you saying that Jews, the victims and scapegoats of everything since time immemorial, have NO right to establish a place where they cannot be persecuted by Christians, Moslems, etc.?
For Christ’s sake (I know, a singularly poor choice of words, but I digress), they have been at war more or less since 1948. The surrounding Arab countries have sworn to eradicate Israel.
They have a right to defend themselves. By any means necessary, I might add.
As such, I don’t consider them to be bigoted, terroristic, or vicious. They are pragmatic. Nothing more, nothing less.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt *
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Ah, yes. The return of ZOG theories. :rolleyes:
Zev Steinhardt
Jews don’t have blanket right to Israel anymore than they have a right to agressively defend themselves in Israel (see Doorsrule) anymore than they have a right to enlist the might of the US to help them accomplish both. You forgot to quote scripture–because it doesn’t follow logically.
Also, since you brought it up by innuendo, might I inquire how you can be pro-American and pro-Israel sumultaneously (if that be the case)? America firmly believes in separation of church and state. Is it not quasi-seditious for Americans to establish and maintain a foreign nation based on scripture? Not only is this un-American, but for an American Jew to have more allegiance to Israel and exploit America, it approaches treason.
Zev, by alluding to me being racist, you also raise the question of Orthodox Jews being explicitly racist and racialist. Yet another contradiction. I refuse to be made an anti-Arab based on ancient Jewish racism and some flimsy orthodox destiny. Are American Jews secretly promoting America’s Christian fundamentalist agenda? That would make sense to me. Dive behind your victimology, but not headfirst, because Judaism is more than protected in America, as is all religions. I just don’t think it’s fair demand your own American colony and enforce one religion over another. This could backfire, no? Perhaps you just don’t get it. The American way only works when religion is officially ignored.
How is this any different than how the Bible says to treat unbelievers?
“If there be found among you … man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant, and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun or moon, or any of the hosts of heaven, which I have not commanded. … Then shalt thou bing forth that man and that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, and shall stone them with stones till they die.”
But hey, I’m an atheist, so by definition I think you’re all nuts. 
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I didn’t say that. I was simply responding your statement that the U.S. is Israel (and, by extension, the Jews’ puppet.)
The fact of the matter, however, is that Israel is there and has a right to defend itself. We’ve been over this topic many times on this board, and I have no real wish to rehash it again.
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I wasn’t going to quote scripture.
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Oooh, so now I’m treasonous… :rolleyes:
Brian,
Guess what? I’m pro-USA. I’m a citizen and have lived here my entire life. Every minute. I have not left this country for one second.
Just because I believe in SOCAS for the United States does not mean that I believe it should exist all over the world. Israel is a JEWISH state. As such, to some extant, Jewish laws must apply. Similarly, the Vatican is a Catholic state. I would not expect SOCAS to apply there either. The same applies to England, there the head of state is also the head of the Anglican Church. When the U.S. was founded we, as a nation, decided to implement SOCAS. Not every country has chosen to do so. And because of that, you cannot compare every country to the U.S.
And lastly, where did you get that I have more alleigence to Israel than the U.S.? Please find something that I said on this board or Usenet (you can find anything I wrote there under my name – I post with my real name) that would support that statement.
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No, I didn’t allude to your being a racist. I alluded to the fact that you believe in a silly conspiracy theory. Ignorant, maybe, but not racist.
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You wanna back that up buddy?
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Huh?
I guess I don’t get it. Was there some point to this besides your claim that Israel is an American colony?
Besides which, if Israel is an American colony, how does it control the U.S.?
Zev Steinhardt
Israel controls the US via American Jews controlling middle-eastern policy (which is where we get most of our oil from and which many Christians anticipate Armageddon, hence the point of interest and control). Below is an article from a ultra-conservative (although I think he is of the Catholic variety like Buchanan) which discusses the unofficial ban on discussing Israel in American poltic$. The article is prominently posted on many racist sites, which only helps Israel to marginalize dissent. Note the quote from an Israeli which prompted the article. I agree with the author about this one thing only, that the method of information control about Israel is so well crafted it’s transparent.
C’mon Brian, is that the best you could dredge up? An article on the CODOH site?
I noted the quote. Big Furry Deal! So one Israeli journalist “claims” that the White House, the Senate and the American Media (I guess they didn’t bribe enough members of the House yet…) are under Israeli control. I can claim that President Bush is my personal lackey too. That doesn’t make it so.
Let me ask you these questions, Brian.
[list]
[li]A major issue with the Jewish community here and in Israel is the moving of the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. If the Israelis control the White House, why has Clinton repeatedly refused to move it?[/li]
[li]Another major concern is the fate of Jonathan Pollard. I don’t want to get into a big debate on whether or not he should be in prison, but, surely, if Clinton was owned by the Israels, Pollard would have been given a pardon by Clinton on the way out, no?[/li]
[li]If Israel owns the U.S. government, why was the U.S. pressuring the Israelis under Barak to ever-greater concessions to the Palestinians?[/li]
[li]If Israel controls the American Media, why the whole outrage regarding the Scheinbein murder (which, FTR, I felt he should have been tried and sentenced in the U.S. for)? Shouldn’t the (“Israeli-owned”) American media have swept it under the rug?[/li]
The bottom line is that Israel doesn’t own the U.S. Claims by silly journalists aside, Israel doesn’t control the Senate, the White House or the American media. Yes, Israel is a U.S. ally (the only one in the region) and yes, Israel receives aid from the U.S. (as do a lot of other countries as well). But to say that Israel “owns” the portions of the U.S. mentioned in the “article” you provided is way off base.
Zev Steinhardt
I’m not saying it is vastly different from Judaism. I’m just saying smashing in the heads of your enemies ain’t the most peaceful principle I’ve run across in a while.
Do you think they can afford to blatantly allow us to assume they control middle-east policy? Why don’t you just ask, “Why isn’t the president Jewish?” Because America isn’t Jewish, and very few are Islam either, hence the issue. We are talking about priority influence, not direct dictation of policy. Pollard, I notice, is the subject of a huge pardon campaign–I don’t see pardon campaigns for other spies. We also gave Israel a free pass when they attacked a US ship killing dozens of sailors. Zev, are you saying that the relatively united and wealthy Jewish-American lobby has little control in the mid-east?
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Huh? First you advance an article that states that the White House, the Senate and the American media are Israeli-controlled. Then you say that they don’t directly control them. Which is it? Or do you subscribe to “the absence of evidence of a conspiracy is the greatest proof that there is one…” ?
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That’s because it could be argued that he got shafted by the (elder) Bush administration. But again, I’m not here to argue the merits or demerits of letting Pollard go.
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You wanna give a cite on that one, buddy?
Sure, there’s an Israeli lobby. No question. However, that is what they do – lobby. They can call and try to convince elected officials to vote in certain ways. But there’s no direct control and there’s no coercion It’s no different than the environmental lobby and any of the other dozens of lobbies out there.
Zev Steinhardt
If the Israelis were actually running things, you’d think that they’d at least have managed to make sure that Lieberman got elected when he ran for V.P. Very careless of them, no?
Brian,
Boy, them Jews that controlled Mideast policy were pretty dumb! They stuck Israel in the only part of the Middle East without oil. You know what? Israel is a secular state, and Zionism is a secular, nationalistic philosophy. It’s just not religious. There are Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Atheists in the Knesset, and if you’ve ever paid attention to the Israeli political spectrum, you’ll see that it’s really broad…broader than the US spectrum. This is a major hijack and deserves it’s own thread, but, Brian, find out what you’re talking about before you talk.
Bunny
Zev
During the 6 Day War in 1967, the U.S. information gathering ship, U S S L i b e r t y, was attacked by Israeli aircraft and gunboats.
The general feeling among a number of people is that the Israeli’s distrusted everyone at that point and knocked out the ship to prevent any intelligence it gathered from being used against Israel (despite the fact that the U.S. did not interfere with the way that Israel waged that war, in any way.)
The Israelis claimed that it was a case of mistaken identity and the U.S. never formally rejected that claim due to the chaotic nature of battle.
A number of people have pointed out that the position of the ship was well known to the Israeli’s before the outbreak of hostilities and that the ship was very well marked as a U.S. vessel, making the “mistaken identity” claim suspect.
Others go further, putting together series of details to construct a major conspiracy.
The Israeli government paid compensation to the 205 casualties or their families, but never issued a formal apology or explanation.
Nonsense. Israel didn’t have the luxury of establishing itself just anywhere. And, one can’t reason by saying that a non-VP is proof the Jewish lobby doesn’t control anything–look at the State Department and consider that they act behind the scenes to be more effective with less resistance. What good would a VP do for Israel anyway? We’re talking moving people’s opinions by default of not having the other side’s story published in Israel-friendly media, which is read by Christian zealots friendly to the creation of Israel. Oil was not an issue back then.
Alessan said:
…and I’m really shocked that not a single other person on this thread has taken a moment to respond. Something like:
“Neither fair nor especially nice?” What kind of sick bullshit is this? And how does tearing down someone’s house automatically become “not terrorism” just because you don’t kill them? Israel may not be totally wrong, but they sure as hell ain’t the good guys.
Thanks for the clarification tomndebb.
I did a little checking on the matter. Yes, the ship was attacked by Israel during the six day war.
One question I have to raise, however, is this: Israel is in the middle of a war that could very well wipe it out. It has one major ally, the United States. Why would it want to actively annoy the U.S. with a deliberate attack and lose it’s major source of funding, arms, etc. It makes no sense.
I’ve seen some of the websites that the survivors put up. Just about all of them make the claim that Israel knew what it was doing and purposely attacked the ship. However, I can’t help but wonder if their opinions aren’t colored by their personal experience. I certainly don’t blame them for being angry at Israel. Hell, I would be too if I was there. That doesn’t, however, necessarily mean that it was done on purpose.
Zev Steinhardt
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Not necessarily true. One of the first plans for a Jewish homeland had it located in (of all places) Uganda.
OK, very pretty little speech. It still doesn’t back up your claim that the U.S. is Israel’s puppet.
And I’m still waiting for you to back up your other claims as well (which you’ve ignored):
I challenged you to find something I said either on this board or Usenet that indicated I had more allegiance to Israel than to the United States. Still waiting…
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Still waiting for you to back this one up too…
Zev Steinhardt
Now it seems I have some legitimate (and some perhaps less so) criticism to face. Re-reading my post I realise I should have spoken of “America being an asshole” rather than
“Americans being assholes”. To the extent that was the problem, I apologise.
That said, I stand by much of what I said. My critics:
and others miss a pertinent point. One of my criticisms of the OP is that appalling acts of persons or groups who are Moslem are attributed too often to their religion, rather than to that person or group’s fanaticism, or megalomania or whatever, and that is deplorable stereotyping. Particularly as all too often the attribution is done without any real thought as to whether Islam has anything to do with it.
What I said about the Israeli regime and America I said because of my views of what the governments of those countries have done and are doing. My views may be wrong. But they are not in essence based on stereotyping. I do not attribute their behaviour simply to the very fact that they are Israeli or American, without thought.
Next up, Sophie:
Sophie, at the risk of sounding patronising, I try (perhaps not always successfully) to avoid being sarcastic while making wild assumptions. Did I say I’d only read ONE newspaper from an Islamic nation? And what, about my post, made you think I believe everything I read? Given my obvious cynicism regarding the Western point of view, self evidently I do not.
What struck me about the alternate point of view of such newspapers was not that they presented different facts, but just a different take on the same facts presented in the Western media. Were those views the views of the people? To a certain extent, to a certain extent not, same as any media. Quite apart from newspapers, I have well educated Iranian and Malaysian friends who certainly don’t like the governments of those countries, but who have similar points of view regarding America.
And finally, it seems to me an obvious fallacy to suggest that the fact that many Moslems might want to emigrate to the US is indicative of anything. Except perhaps that it’s much more comfortable to be a resident of the US than a resident of a country that’s a victim of some the US’s less honourable foreign policy.
Now, next up. Lonesome Polecat, I long ago decided that (ignoring the rather fine distinctions some seek to draw), terrorism and dirty war are the same thing. The former is what other people do, the latter is what responsible nations like us do.
Finally, back to…
I don’t want to get too much into the debate about Israel and Palestinians, not because I don’t have views, but because it’s a bit much of a hijack. But this view, and others like it, I couldn’t let pass. So, C K, as I see it, according to you, if you put far too many mice in a cage, give them nothing to do and little to eat and then wait till they start biting one another and scrambling over one another to climb out, they’re oppressing one another, right? Nothing to do with you, right?