Islam is a barbaric religion

Great Debates
61

To: Zev and Brian

If you guys want to debate whether Israelis or Jews are running the U.S., then please start a new thread along those lines.

Let’s get back to the OP’s point who challenged anyone to cite an example of an Islamic country that has “flourished scientifically or culturally”.

As a fellow atheist, I’d like to ask Morpheous (the OP) what he means by flourishing scientifically or culturally. What is the yardstick for measurement?

Of course, Ayatollah’s rule is a piece of shit. But, if you think that is bad, look at the Talibans in Afghanistan. And if you think Talibans are bad, look at Idi Amin’s rule in Uganda where he served his enemy’s head at state dinners. And if you think Uganda was bad … wait…there is probably worse to come…Rwanda and Tutus?…and they are not necessarily Moslems.

If the OP’s yardstick is the number of Nobel Prize winners per country, it appears that a Moslem country like Egypt has had its fair share of Nobel Prize winners in Literature, Peace, etc. As for scientific flourishing, the countries that produce the most Nobel Prize winners happen to be the first world countries that have the economic means of doing so. It really has nothing to do with Islam. Have you read the bios of all scientific Nobel Prize winners to see which had what religion?

Talking about a yardstick for “culture”, Islamic culture equates “charging interest on a loan” to usury. Are you suggesting that 25% interest by the non-Islamic credit card companies is a sign of “flourishing culture”?

Note that compared to Christianity, Judaism., Buddhism and Zeoratrianism, Islam is a relatively young organized religion. Just like human evolution, you have to allow Islam time to go through its own trials and tribulations before it becomes as mature (and irrelevant) as all other older religions.

The unfortunate thing is that we are living now at the middle of all this shit. By the year 9001, when we will hopefully “flourish scientifically and culturally”, everyone will know that those people who lived 7,000 years ago spent a lot of their mental energy on fairy-tale, stupid, man-made and idiotic concepts such as God and religion…Islam or otherwise.

62

I agree with you whole-heartedly One Cell. However, I couldn’t let Brian’s statements pass unchallanged.

Zev Steinhardt

63

Zev,

Read the post again, it was asking you a question, which you never satifactorily answered. How are you loyal to a foreign nation? Then I was commenting about such people “American Jews” loyal to Israel, not necessarily you, which I made clear (“if that is the case…”). If you give a flimsy answer on this one, consider those who tried to befriend Russia during the cold war, or even those who befriend Islam today.

Also, Orthodox Jews are racist and racialist by definition–one can only breed within hardcore Judaism, and one cannot easily mix with others–there are many quotes in Jewish literature that advocate not fraternizing with gentiles and even exploiting them, and many verses that disparage blacks (I think one is not even supposed to charge fellow Jews interest? True?). Orthodox Jews prevent intermarriage and excommunicate those that do (or those who tolerate it–one is supposed to disown a family member for it). A Rabbi in the Torah slaughtered a couple that married outside of Judaism, and is considered a hero for it. I don’t even expect you to understand what racism is, Zev, nor anyone that embraces the rotten Old Testament.

64

Aargh…do not want to hijack this thread, do not want to hijack this thread…am going to anyway.

Brian, I have a friend who’s Orthodox, as are his parents. His ancestry? His father’s family is German, his mother is Cherokee. There are Jews, and yes, Orthodox Jews of every race, skin color, what have you. If you’re not born Jewish, then you can convert. Now, can we please get away from why stereotyping Jews is bad and back to why stereotyping Muslims is bad?

65

You’ll have to forgive me, Brian, I don’t understand the point you are trying to make here.

**

**

I love the way you use that word “breed.” What are we, cattle?

In any event, yes, it’s true that according to Jewish law, Jews can only marry other Jews. However, anyone (from any race) can become a Jew. So I fail to see how this is racist.

**

Granted, this too is true. However, there are many people who propose isolationist policies for the U.S. Are they racsit too for wanting to be “left alone?”

**

You’ll have to come up with a cite for that one.

**

This too is wrong. In fact, there are black Orthodox Jews!!

**

Yes, but it’s a two way street. Jews cannot collect or give interest from other Jews. However they can collect and give interest to non-Jews.

**

On religious grounds… but as I mentioned above, it has nothing to do with race. Anyone can become a Jew and marry another Jew.

**

Granted, that is an extreme reaction that some in the past have taken, however that is not necessarily the recommended way to deal with it. Most Orthodox Jews today do not deal with intermarried family members by disowning them. I have a cousin who intermarried and I have not “disowned” him.

**

You are talking about Pinchas. It wasn’t as much as what the perpetrator was doing, as much as it was the fact that the perpetrator was flouting the authority of Moses by defying him and the elders right in front of their eyes. Extreme times call for extreme measures. But, in any event, NO Orthdox Jews would advocate doing this today.

**

:rolleyes:

Thank you for your commentary. It has been duly noted and filed. :rolleyes:

In any event, Brian, if you want to continue this, please open up a new thread, as suggested by One Cell. We are hijacking this one.

Zev Steinhardt

66

I’m sorry, Zev (and BTW, well spoken), but I have to keep the hijack going just a bit longer.

The Jewish People wish to maintain the heritage, customs and religion of the Jews, and to keep Jews alive. That is the reason the state of Israel was founded - so that Jews would not be senselessly slaughtered (at least not without the chance to fight back) like they had been for the last two thousand years, and so that the one of the world’s oldest, most accomplished cultures would not disappear. Do you have a problem with that, Bunnyhurt? Do you find that racist? Well, tough shit, Bunnyhurt. The Jewish People and the State of Israel exist, and will continue to exist long after the worms finish eaing the rotten flesh off your bones. Like the thought? I know I do.

For anyone else who may be deceived by Mr. Bunnyhurt’s bile: Israel is not a religious country. Sure, like virtually every nation on earth, they don’t have the US’s strict seperation of church and state; actually, I’d be happy if there was a bit more American-style seperation. You see - unlike your government, my government isn’t perfect. But you must remember this: Israel was founded by non-religious, possibly Atheist, and definately quasi-Socialist Jews; and Israel is not controlled by Religious Jews today (at least, no more that the U.S. is controlled by the Christian Right). The majority of Israelis are not particularly religious, and many of them consider themselves atheists - but all of them consider themselves Jews, and most of them love their country (in fact, some may say that you’ll find more Zionism among the non-religious than among the more Orthodox). That’s because - and I’m sorry, David B, but I have to say this again - most Israeli Jews think of the Jews as a nation, an ethnic group, and noyt as a religion. Just as Italy is an italian country, Ireland is an Irish country, and Japan is a Japanese country, Israel is a Jewish country. Religion is important, to be sure, but ultimately secondary.

Does that make us racist? Perhaps. We don’t hate anybody else, and we don’t act superior; in fact, Jews tend to hold themselves to a higher moral standard than they hold the rest of the world. Are there racist Jews? Regrettably, yes. We’re human, and racism seems to be a universal trait among certain types of people. I apologize for any racist action made by my fellow Jews - as they say, all of the People of Israel are accountable for each other. But ultimately, all we want is to be left alone.

One last thing - Mr. Bunnyhurt has denied that he is an antisemite. This, in fact, is true. What he is is a Jew-hater. Now, while he may claim that he is also a Christian-hater, there is one clear difference: historically, people who hate Christians tend to get killed by Christians, ehile people who hate Jews tend to kill Jews.

A subtle difference, but a crucial one.

67

An honest mistake indeed, thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t being confused, just not as clear as you have been, thank you.

And I use “Muslim” in the same way I use “Christian”, to indicate a general group of people, knowing full well that the VAST majority of Muslims AND Christians are decent people whom you want living next door to you. Only a few are terrorists.

As an aside, I have always been amused that the conflict in northern Ireland seems cut cleanly across religeous lines (Catholic/Protestant) but religeon seems to have little to do with the conflict as a whole. Islamic peoples don’t seem to commit acts of terrorisim against other Islamic peoples, do they? Or am I just wildly uninformed? Probably.

68

Zev,

Abort, abort. As this thread demonstrates, your debate with Brian will go nowhere fast.

Sua

69

Algeria: review news for the past decade.
Sudan: War is characterized by fundamentalists attacks on both Christians, pagans and Muslims who they don’t like.

That’s off the top of my head.

70

That may well be true Sua, but I can’t allow statements like that to go unchallanged.

Zev Steinhardt

71

Calling me a Jew-hater illustrates my point perfectly. You don’t see the problems Judaism causes or contributes to in many places around the world as related to any of your fatalistic and closed dogmatic positions–it is all their/our fault (how convenient–no religious surprises there). How is this so? Claiming to be one God’s chosen people? Anti-intermarriage? Colonial reclaiming of bibilical lands? Previous immigration into foreign lands and insisting to speak your own language? Propping up fundamental Christianity via fundamental Judaism will not serve your cause (my observation from knowing how fundamentalists think). They stupidly see Israel in terms of Armageddon, and they are the ones who would not marry a Jew for the hate reasons you demand (I married a Jew). You are in bed with fundamentalists who see Judaism the way you want them to see it, but for very different reasons that you may disagree with (congratulations on being misunderstood by your own free will). When Israel is attacked by modern weaponry, they will not welcome Jewish refugees here, yet I will (are you too blind with self-interest to acknowledge this?). What will your position be then? America will not exterminate your enemies, you are slowly dying of wishful thinking and haven’t got a pot to piss in. Maybe you and all Jews should start making friends instead of enemies (free advice). Hint: Self-righteousness is not an ethical position to demand special favors.

72

Thanks, will do. I knew about the Christian/Pagan/infidel thing in general but didn’t know they shot their own folks. Though with such fineline distinctions as to who “our folks” and "their folks"are,(as many religeons engender), I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.

T’anx for smarting me up.
Billy

73

**

Judaism causes problems? If that’s the case, Brian, I ask you these two questions, and please answer them clearly and concisely:

  1. What are the problems that Judaism causes in the world?
  2. Is the solution to these “problems” to eliminate either the Jews or Judaism?

**

**

Do you even know what that means? Take a stab at that first. Understand what “Chosen People” means before attempting to claim that it causes Judaism to be fatalistic and problematic around the world.

**

I already addressed this with you.

**

Are you denying that Jews have ever lived in those lands? Do you not think that the Jews have a right to live there? Do you deny that the Jews have a historical link to the area?

**

In many cases against their will. The Jews would have been all too happy to stay in Israel had not the Babylonians and Romans exiled them.

**

So what? Italians who come from Italy speak Italian. People who come from Spanish-speaking countries speak Spanish. There are plenty of Russians here who speak Russian. What’s wrong with wanting to speak your mother tounge.

Now before you go off on a rampage, I will say this. I think that immigrants should attempt to learn to speak the language of the land. However, there is currently no law requiring one to do so.

**

I don’t know where you get this idea that Orthodox Judaism props up fundamental Christianity. The very notion is absurd.

**

I can’t speak for what fundamentalist Christians do or don’t do. Nor can I speak for whom you marry.

**

I fail to see how Orthodox Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity are “in bed” together.

And what does all this ranting have to do with your opening statement (that Judaism causes problems around the world)?

Zev Steinhardt

74

Ever hear of Israel? Nazi Germany? Russian pograms? If Jews want to live in other countries, maybe they should consider adapting to the local culture, heaven forbid they should relax the racial purity crap. Your position is inconsistent. If gentiles can’t easily mingle with Orthodox Jews, why should Orthodox Jews then move where gentiles happen to live? Or is it the case that it’s your world, and we all just live in it? In case you are deceiving yourself about the biblical account of Judaism, this is currently presenting itself as a fantasy.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/02/04/reviews/010204.04triblet.html

Zev, you and Alessa need to wake up to modern reality. DNA tests prove that Arabs and Jews are culturally related and perhaps indistinguishable, your covenants with Abraham notwithstanding. Don’t throw rocks in glass houses.

75

**

Oh, I see. What happened in Nazi Germany and the Russian progroms was the fault of the Jews. Silly me for thinking otherwise. Thanks for enlightening me… :rolleyes:

**

To some degree they do. I’m American, but I’m also Jewish. Why should I have to give up my Jewish customs and beliefs simply because I live here?

**

Brian, you already been told this numerous times … JEWS ARE NOT A RACE!! Get over it already!

We don’t subscribe to any “racial purity” theories. [bAnyone** can become Jewish, no matter what their race. So get off it already!

**

Because we live in a country where your residence cannot be denied on the basis of religion. If I want to live in Brooklyn, then I can. If I want to live in Ottumwa, Iowa, then I can. If I want to live on your block, I can.

**

Been reading the Protocols, haven’t we?

**

Hey, if you want to believe the Torah is false, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. But don’t tell me that I have to believe that it is false.

**

Since both Judaism and Islam teach that both Jews and Arabs are both descended from Abraham, I could have told you that myself.

**

yeah, right… whatever.

By the way, Brian you still haven’t answered the questions I put to you above. Please do so.

(BTW, my apologies to Morpheous for hijacking his thread and to everyone else who has had to put with this. I would love to continue this in another thread, but I will not allow Brian to make absurd statements and have them go unchallanged.)

Zev Steinhardt

**
[/QUOTE]

76

I’d like to add a few points:

Colonial? Colonialism is when a powerful, technologically advanced nation sends out armed forces to conquer a more “primitive” nation. What colonial forces captured Palestine? Oh yeah, that’s right - penniless, outnumbered Jewish refugees, escaping death and persecution in their “home” countries. Colonialism. Absolutely.

And before you say: “the British conquered Palestine for the Jews”, I suggest you look up the terms “White Book”, “Exodus”, “Hagana” and “Irgun”.

Israel has been attacked by modern weaponry - in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982 - unless, of course, you don’t consider MiGs and T-64s “modern weaponry”. On all counts we did just fine. True, in 1973 we did receive some American weaponry (thanks again, guys!), but it was only a fraction of the amount the Arabs received from the U.S.S.R. before the fighting started. Israel survived quite well before the U.S. started helping, and will survive after the help ends. As for annihilating our enemies - thanks, but we can manage that by ourselves. Hell, if we allowed ouirselves to play the “annihilation” card, all our problems in the Mideast would have been over years ago.

“No pot to piss in?” What country has the largest amount of computers per household, per capita? What country gave the world the Pentium II and Timna chips, ICQ and the seedless watermellon? The Israeli economy is doing A-OK. Thanks for your concern.

Oh, and when the United States collapses into a bunch of warring, Balkanized nations, or when Pat Robertson seizes control and instills the Christian States of America, then we’ll be there to give a home to the American Jews. We’ll probably even take in Mr, Bunnyheart.

(After preview)

So the Holocaust was our fault?

The hell with it. See you in the Pit.

And that’s Alessan, motherfucker.

77

Do Jews esteem or cultivate persecution? I mean, is it in the Torah too?

http://dianedew.com/persecut.htm

Allessan, is it really okay to you if Christians kill Christians as long as they don’t kill Jews? By the way, I’m atheist, so your analysis doesn’t apply to me.

78

**

First of all, most of the quotes in the link you presented are from the NT. Guess what, Brian, Jews don’t put any stock in the NT.

As for the OT quotes therein, so what? If that’s the case, then Christians (who hold the OT to be sacred as well) should be just as persecuted. Lastly, the verses you brought don’t tell you that you must be persecuted. Sometimes, however, in this world, the bad seem to triumph. They are either expressing the author’s frustration with that fact or their desire that it were otherwise.

C’mon Brian, surely you can do better than that…

And I’m still waiting for the answer to this exchange:

Zev Steinhardt

79

Jesus was a Jew who begat victimology, (thanks for nothing) and I answered your question by listing 3 places, the first “causing” and the latter involving “contributing to.” Deny it if you must–I guess you think the German and Russian people must be pure evil (which begs the question as to why Jews wanted to live there or how they settled in to begin with–answer me that one if you please and document the persecution as it progressed and explain why without demonizing them, there’s a logical reason to everything).

Furthermore, I answered your begging plea for persecution with the link and the question–I’m way ahead of you on this one. By the way, did any Rabbi murder any atheists in the Torah? Did you even notice that you are taunting me to despise Judaism? It’s called a persecution complex and you are about a 7 on a scale of 10. (It won’t work, I’m not selling a replacement religion). Like I said earlier, I don’t expect you to understand racism, not when you are advocating a race religion and giving it special status.

80

**

… and I put no stock in anything Jesus did. Nor does anyone else within Judaism. Please stick to the topic.

**

So then you are saying that the Jews “contributed to” the Holocaust and Russian Pogroms.

I suppose they also “contributed to” the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and the Desecaration of the Host massacres that occured too. :rolleyes:

**

No, because, unlike you, I don’t paint an entire people with a brush.

Were there evil Germans and evil Russians? Sure. There were also those that risked their lives to save Jews.

**

Because when they settled there it was a place where they were welcome. After being kicked out of one part of Europe they had to somewhere. Germany (or Russia, or whereever) may have offered them a sancturary.

Judaism expanded greatly in Germany in the 1800 and early 1900s. It was a place where the Jews could live and practice their religion freely. Just because the political climate began to change in the 1920s and 30s doesn’t invalidate any reason they may have had for going there in the first place.

**

You want me to find a reason why the Nazis persecuted the Jews without demonizing them?!? Why don’t you ask me to find a reason why Jeffrey Dahmer murdered and ate people without demonizing him? (He was hungry, perhaps…) :rolleyes:

**

Not true.

**

I’m not begging for persecution. I’m asking for you to clarify what you said.

**

… that didn’t answer my question.

**

Not to my knowledge.

But, even if so, so what? Judaism does not allow for freedom of religion for Jews. (Gentiles, not being bound by Jewish law, can believe in other gods).

**

No, I’m taunting you to clarify what you alluded to and say exactly what you mean.

**

Sorry, but I don’t have a persecution complex. What I do have is a desire to know the truth about you… why don’t you just answer the two questions I posed to you. They’re fairly direct questions. Answer them.

**

so you’ve said.

**

Brian,

If I was talking to you verbally, I’d think you have cotton stuffed in your ears! You’ve been told (how many times?) that Judaism is not a race. You can’t join a race by choice. You can become a Jew by choice.

C’mon now, it’s not hard. Repeat after me…

Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.
Judaism is not a race.

So what? The members of any religion will believe that theirs is the “correct” one and give it special status. How is Judaism any different than Christianity, Islam, etc. in this regard?

Zev Steinhardt

P.S. – Remember Brian,

JUDAISM IS NOT A RACE