Muslims rejecting Christianity? My heavens–what kind of topsy-turvy world do we live in?? The next thing you know, the Jews will be rejecting Christianity!!
You may as well ask why Christmas was set so near Saturnalia, Yule and Hannukah. Looks like the Christians are far more guilty on this count.
Oh, and Christmas isn’t the largest holiday of the Christian calendar. Easter is. You know, the Crucifixion and Resurrection and all?
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Well, actually, both Christmas and Easter were originally pagan festivals co-opted by the Christians to make Christianity more attractive to both prospective and recent converts. Or, to be a little more precise, these were pagan festivals–the Saturnalia of the Romans and the Yule of the Germanic pagans–that were gradually Christianized because it was impossible to uproot them entirely.
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*Originally posted by pldennison *
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Well of course I don’t expect Muslims to be Christians. The point is that Christianity was rejected specifically as the religion of the oppressor. Not universally, and probably not even by a majority of its new adherents. But some in Malcolm X’s crowd IIRC were laying that rhetoric down fairly heavily.
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I know why the Catholics scheduled Christmas where they did. Not being a Christian, I don’t really care one way or another. I suspect similar motives of the creator of Kwanzaa. Is this unreasonable?
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Yes, to devout Christians anyway. All in all, the celebration of Easter isn’t even a tenth that of the Christmas season though. Christmas promotion begins before Halloween some places, has dozens and dozens of specific songs known to even the nonreligious, involves parties, family get togethers, caroling, elaborate decorations, dozens of TV specials, and billions of dollars worth of merchandise. Easter has pastel M&M’s, Cadbury Creme Eggs, and a rabbit. While Easter may have a deeper meaning to the devout, as holiday celebrations go it doesn’t even stack up to Independance Day.
I think this about says it all.
Of course, this seems pertinent to this thread, as well.
Slight nitpick here…
If Jesus was a Jew…and if my knowledge of the races is correct…then Jesus was not a “white male.” Or at least, not considered Caucasian.
Continue with your rat-killing.
People who atually believe in the taxonomy of Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid place the Semitic peoples in the Caucasoid group.
The only people who have begun trying to place Jews outside the “white” category are a few Aryan-nut-case groups who have tried to define their pseudo-science hatreds subsequent to the Nazis and their “Aryan” pseudo-science.
(The same groups try to put the Italians, and sometimes the Spanish, outside the “white” category. They only include Greeks because they want to claim that Socrates and Aristotle were “white.”)
No, it’s not. The other people are free to continue singing the American National Anthem regardless of what anyone else sings.
Isn’t, implicit in the claim that Christmas doesn’t represent them, there the claim that Christmas is racist?
Biggirl:
I see. The “anyone who disagrees with me doesn’t know what they’re talking about” argument.
The conceit of someone who believes she knows what other people are thinking can be heard in Biggirl’s words.
Is putting words in other people’s mouths the extent of your rhetorical skills?
Not at all. It could easily mean that they are not followers of Christianity. It could mean that they are Christians, but do not feel the pull of the originally-pagan soltice festivals that Christmas co-opted. It could mean a whole lot of things without having a charge of “racism” dumped on it.
The Ryan said:
Well, isn’t it?
I mean, have you ever heard anybody singing about the dream for a black Christmas? Huh? Huh? Have you?
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The fact that you don’t agree with me is not what brought me to my conclusions. It was statements like this:
and this:
That lead me to believe you don’t know what Kwanzaa is about. There is nothing about Kwanzaa that says you have to reject Christmas. Which part of the six principles say: Christmas should not be celebrated, it is the custom of your oppressor?
Let me check again: Unity, faith, self-determination, purpose, responsibility, co-operative economics. Nope, nothing here about rejecting Christmas. You are wrong The Ryan, not because I say so, but because you don’t know what Kwanzaa is about.
I refer to Hail Ants own words:
I was not putting words into anyone’s mouth, only interpreting what I read. So, straighten me out on this The Ryan. What, again are your objections to Kwanzaa?
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Sorry to wander into this thread unannounced, but I have to ask, Tom - you don’t know that many Yemenite Jews, do you?
The ancient Jews were almost definitely a shortish, dark-haired, olive-skinned people, much like the other nations of the Levant. So if you define their cousins, the Arabs, as “white”, then you can use the same definition on the Jews. Most people, however, don’t.
It seems to me, Tom, that you’ve been exposed mainly to European Jews, who’ve intermingled eith their neighbours quite a lot over the last millenia or two. If you’d had met some more Morroccan, Iraqi, Kurdish or Ethiopean Jews, you’d be more hesitant in dealing out racial definitions.
Alessan (who, despite his blondish hair, blue eyes and pale skin, does not really think of himself as being “white”).
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The ethnologists of the nineteenth century only invented three “races” (we have had several threads on the subject, lately): Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid. Within those three groups, Arabs and Jews were clearly considered Caucasian, as were the Coptic Egyptians, the Persians, and most of the ethnic groups within the Indian subcontinent (although I don’t recall whether they considered the Mogols Caucasian or Mongoloid).
Current anthropology provides for five “races”: blacks, whites, Pygmies, Khoisan, Asians, and Aboriginal Australians. (Citation from Jared Diamond’s article on How Africa Became Black in Discover Magazine Archives, February, 1994.)
In each case, Jews (Yemenite or Ashkenazi or Sephardic or whoever) are considered “white.” I am aware of no reputable scientist who places Jews in a “non-white” category. The sole exceptions to this category would be the Falasha who are Ethiopians practicing (a form of) Judaism and the former K’ai-feng Jews who were Chinese practicing Judaism.
Question, would you/anyone consider it racist\homophobic if someone invented straight pride day?
I’m not talking about what it might mean. I’m talking about what it does mean.
But Kwaanza’s noninlusiveness is a fundamental part of its nature. It was conceived with the purpose of giving black something to share, and of denying whites that something. Sure, whites can celebrate Kwaanza. But it is obvious that they are expected not to.
Come to think of this, this statement supports my position. You clearly refer to Christmas as being a “white” holiday, and Kwaanza being a “black” holiday. How can you say that that is not racist?
You’re bringing up a straw man. Sure, it is never explicitly stated that Kwaanza is a rejection of Christmas. But that doesn’t change the fact that this is part of what Kwaanza is about.
I refer to Hail Ants own words:
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WTF? Since when does Hail Ants speak for me? Or are all white people the same to you?
It’s fundamentally based on a segregationist paradigm.
Anyone can be gay (beige,brown,pink or orange), and at least in my community heterosexuals who are in PFLAG are encouraged to march as well. Gay pride also isn’t a holiday, it’s a political rally that happens annually and usually a lot more fun than any holiday march with the exception of Carnival in Rio.
The primary difference is that Kwanza purports to be cultural specifically to those who can trace origins to that African continent thus making it an “ethnic” holiday. Although to be honest my cultural heritage includes the Northern part of the African continent I have no longings to celibrate Kwanza and while I’m not gay I do march in June (the usual time of year for Gay pride in Portland). Kwanza may be intended to be inclusive (I don’t know anyone who participates so I don’t know who to ask) but I don’t think it is. Thus you have an institution that actively segregates on the baisis of race whereas gay and bi activisim is very inclusive not only of race but or creed as well.
List of created holidays that cross ethnic lines:
American version of Christmas.
Mother’s Day.
Fathers Day.
Valentines Day.
Memorial Day.
Veterans Day.
President’s Day.
Martin Luther King Day.
4th of July.
Halloween.
List of created holidays that exclude on the baisis of race:
Kwanza.
uhhh…
I can’t think of any other ones.
Special note on St Patricks Day as it relates to Kwanza. On St Patricks day “everyone is Irish.”. Maybe if the mottoe of Kwanza was “The time of year when everyone is African.” and I could wear my daishiki to work w/o looking to the “stupid Jew that dresses funny.” it would be cool.
I’m not against Kwanza, it has no real effect on me at all but to say that it either does not discriminate or that it is ok for opressed people to discriminate because the are opressed is silly. I say if you want to have real interchange between people and cultural awareness then make Kwanza an American celibration of African culture and include non-africans in the celibration.
No, you’re not. You are imposing a meaning on it for which you have provided no supporting evidence from the celebrants. Your question was “What is implicit in the claim?” and the answer is that there is nothing “implicit” in the claim.
If supporters of Kwanzaa have not explicitly rejected Christmas, any meaning of that sort that you impose on it comes from your own beliefs.
Well, you are already batting zero, because Kwanzaa is not created to exclude anyone on the basis of race. There is nothing in the promotion of Kwanzaa that excludes anyone and even the earliest supporters of Kwanzaa did not claim that only blacks could participate.
On the other hand, there is nothing particularly inviting (other than a desire to increase revenues from non-community participants) in the various Italian celebrations of the Assumption, the Greek festivals for Saint Nicholas, the Chinese New Year, etc. (I realize that they were not “created,” but then, the participants were not forced to give up all connection to their ethnic heritages when they were imported, thus breaking the ethnic ties that they might have had to a “traditional” festival.)
Show me that you have protested those (exclusive) ethnic festivals and I will consider that perhaps you aren’t simply some white guy that is upset that some black folk are having a good time.
Considering the rather small percentage of the black community that even engages in Kwanzaa celebrations, and all this talk of “exclusion” and “rejection” really does look like frightened white folks worrying over nothing.
Umm, I’m not white.
As for Greek festivals I have never seen one. Not much of a Greek community here I guess. Chineese holidays are a big deal here and are very much all inclusive in the Portland area. Same thing for Columbus day, and St Patricks day you must have heard of- or did you miss that line about “the day that everyone is Irish”?
Also I have yet to protest Kwanza, but I do point out that it is exclusive or bu the mere fact that it does not invite multiracial participation it give the impression of being exclusive. Like I said, if it were inclusive I would actually be for it rather than indifferent (please note that it is possible to have an opinion and still not care. For example, I like women with black hair and Betty Paige bangs, but I don’t care that most guys like blondes.).
If you can actually show how I’m anti-Kwanza then I’ll aquiesce to your opinion of me (I guess I’ll become “white”) instead of thinking your reaction is similar to every other liblab reactionary. See, to me so long as you fail to read all that I have to say and yet feel that you have some basis to form a derogatory response based on what you think I’m saying then you are truly missing it entirely. I stated clearly that my lineage includes North African and alluded to being a Jew. I’m not some paleface convert goyim, or some Woody Allen euro-hebe. I’m a big, dark, hairy Jew and don’t like it when people assume I’m a honkey.