Isn't celebrating Kwanza just being anti-white?

[The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz]

In each case, Jews (Yemenite or Ashkenazi or Sephardic or whoever) are considered “white.” I am aware of no reputable scientist who places Jews in a “non-white” category. The sole exceptions to this category would be the Falasha who are Ethiopians practicing (a form of) Judaism and the former K’ai-feng Jews who were Chinese practicing Judaism.

Hi Tom!! Here’s something really neat I found when reading about what race the Egyptians were (here’s a hint, Lefkowitz is wronger than she is right) or perhaps it was the blacks in sports thing. Mmmm.
“DNA AND AFRICAN/JEWISH GENEALOGY. “Nu, What’s Nu?,” edited by
Gary Mokotoff – http://www.incor.com/avotaynu.htm to subscribe;
back issues are available at http://www.avotaynu.com/nu.htm –
recently reported that it has been proven through DNA testing
that the Lemba tribe of South Africa, whose members, claim
Jewish ancestry, indeed have Jewish ancestry. “Not only do
they have `Jewish genes’ but DNA tests proved the subset of
their culture, who claim to be of the priestly class, do have
the Cohanic Y-chromosome genes. Anthropological research has
demonstrated they are likely descended from Yemenite Jews who
plied the African east coast trade routes more than 1,000 years
ago.” For more information about the Lemba tribe visit
http://www.gsnonweb.com/gsnlib_a/gsn1999/99_05/990509/41013.html”

http://www.msstate.edu/listarchives/afrigeneas/200005/msg00087.html

[tomndebb]

Sorry, Zen101, but Jews are white (aside from the Falafa and the Lemba that George just mentioned). (I notice you haven’t been reading everything I posted, either.)

Since no one complaining about Kwanzaa has posted anything remotely indicating its exclusive nature, but I keep seeing unsupported assertions that it is exclusive, I guess I’m getting just a bit weary of pointing out the obvious.

As for your unfamiliarity with ethnic festivals, I understand that those are not found throughout the entire U.S. I assure you, however, that in ethnic enclaves (mostly through the rust-belt, but with a few scattered in other pockets of the country), they are a really big deal and they very definitely are aimed at their specific ethnic group–just as Kwanzaa was originally intended. The principal difference is that those celebrations have become money-making events, inspiring the organizers to invite lots of outsiders to join in (and bring cash) while Kwanzaa has still maintained a mostly spiritual bent.

St. Patrick’s Day has not been an ethnic festival in at least 30, and perhaps 50, years. It more resembles Mardi Gras (also no longer ethnic) than any ethnic festival. For an Irish Festival, find a summer weekend produced by the local Irish-American club and go look at the overwhelming exclusivity they demonstrate (including constant sniping at Britain and occasional shots at the Scots).

---

George! Good to see you. Yeah, when Cyberian was running around complaining about all those poor, maligned “Arab” pyramid builders, I stumbled onto an article on the Lemba.

[The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz]

Just random things that I felt I had to tell you what I thought about.

Jerseydiamond:

Question, would you/anyone consider it racist\homophobic if someone invented straight pride day?

Sugarpop, every day is straight pride day.

Zen101

. I say if you want to have real interchange between people and cultural awareness then make Kwanza an American celibration of African culture and include non-africans in the celibration.

We already have that, it’s called professional sports.

The Ryan (thank God I finally met him…I’ve had run-ins with so many imposters)

Isn’t, implicit in the claim that Christmas doesn’t represent them, there the claim that Christmas is racist?

I suppose some pan-africanists regard Christmas as part of the “othering” process, by which the semiotic artifacts of a culture destablize other groups. Probably most of the celebrants, though, who are assimilated at least well enough to negotiate a college campus despite their groovy dashikis, simply don’t feel Christmas is relevant to them, or at least that’s the hype they want to lay on your dumb cracker ass. And it looks like it’s working, too. I DEMAND FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL MY PEOPLE! No, um, I’m funnin’ ya. Look, you probably don’t read Cosmo, do you? You don’t care how to, you know, meet a man, or learn fun new kicky ways to dress up that drab bedroom and delicious recipies to lose ten pounds in five days or what he really wants in bed and how to give it to him…have you noticed the articles in these magazines are the same, month after month? but I digress. Anyway, this is a magazine for women, about women stuff, presumably written with a woman in mind. either that or someone who is like extra extra gay. Okay, and maybe a lot of gay women don’t read Cosmo, either. Anyway, uh…this guy made up a holiday which was kind of like that. he felt like a man forced to read Cosmo, so he thought he’d hatch up something like Maxim. I especially liked the one with Melissa Joan Heart, who is a stone cold honey.

So, you probably wouldn’t be too welcome at a Kwanzaa celebration, certainly not if you are going to accuse the other guests of being racist segregationists. I dunno, you might be underestimating the value of showing up at a party with what charm you can muster, clean socks, and a bottle of good scotch. In any case, there aren’t that many people who celebrate Kwanzaa, I’m sure none of them live near you, and it’s really not worth getting worked up over.

[zen101]

Peoples of true Hebrew Jewish descent like myself are not caucasians. Caucasians don’t come from Semitic stock (well unless you go in for Adam and Eve and think they were Semites). True, you can be a Jew and not be a Semite (which is why I excluded specifically European Jews, many of which as Slavic or Eurasian). I’m light brown. Not white, or pink, or any other color. My ancestry is primarily from North Africa and Araby with some Northern European and Native American (Lakota) on my fathers side.

The link provided (the one that worked anyhow) simply ratified information pertaining to some African people having a common genetic link to Semetic Jews. A point which actually demonstrates that there is a discernable difference between offay and Jews, otherwise the link would have been about how the African tribes mentioned had “white” genes. Hell, I could have told you that. Sycle Cell is another thing white people don’t have to contend with (if you are white and have it, you ain’t all white. Not by a long shot.). Jews have known about this for quite some time as it is medical issue that while not common does happen to be a concern (In my family it has only popped up once.). A lot of “Lost Jews” have actually found out about their heritage because of this anemia.

“Jews Are White”. uh huh. I suppose that explains all them pictures of Jeebus with his blue eyes and blond hair.

To be more specific: I’m a jew of Semetic ancestry. Some Jews are white or are of very diluted ancestry, heavily mixed with European genes. However, the statement that “Jews are white” is poppycock.

Was Judah Maccabe from Northern Italy or Switzerland I wonder.

[even_sven]

How many times must I sing the same tune?

Let’s start from the begining. There is a group of people that live in the United States that are decended from African Slaves. We call these people African-Americans. They exist. In fact, there existance is a little different than the existance of the average American of European decent. The African-American experience is even a little different than the Asian-American experience or the Native American Experience. This is not in all cases, of course, but in general the experience of African-Americans is somewhat different than the American of Europenan decent’s experience. One is not better or worse than the other, just different.

Don’t believe me? Here are some examples. A favorite hobby of Americans of European decent is geneology. As a school project, I once traced my roots back to 15th century Switzerland. I can also take pride in my Estonian heritage when the subject comes up, and talk about Estonian culture, some parts of which have been passed down (much diluted of course) through my family. Joe-down-the-street, an African American, can’t trace his roots that far. Slave traders were not all that interested in liniage. In fact, he has little idea of where in Africa his ancestors came from. Perhaps he takes pride in Africa in general. Perhaps he takes pride other African Americans. That IS his de facto roots. Okay, that was a little obscure, let’s try again. I live in a suburb of Sacramento. Very few African American’s live here (well thats a lie, I live in Rancho Cordova, so let’s pretend that I live in nearly all white Folsom). Many African American’s live in the inner city of Sacramento and it’s older pre WWII run down suburbs (Oak Park, for example). Why? Suburbs were fueled by the GI bill after WWII? Guess who got the GI Bill? My white Grandpa, not someone else’s black grandpa.

So people would like to acknowlage and celebrate their unique experience (which we have established, does exist). What is wrong with that? The African-American cultural experience is a little newer than, say, the Jewish experience, so the genesis of their holidays may seem a little artificial, but does that matter?

[zen101]

*Originally posted by even sven *
**How many times must I sing the same tune?

So people would like to acknowlage and celebrate their unique experience (which we have established, does exist). What is wrong with that? The African-American cultural experience is a little newer than, say, the Jewish experience, so the genesis of their holidays may seem a little artificial, but does that matter? **

This is not all for you, but I hate multiple postings.

I don’t think anyone really has a valid problem with the celebration of Kwanza. The only thing that irks some people is that a few people deny that it is exclusive. And become rabit if it implied that it is exclusive. There are a lot of things that are great and nobody minds but are exclusive. The million man march was a great thing (with the minor exception of Minister Farakahn) and it’s premise was exclusive to not only blacks but specifically black males. Didn’t have any effect on me other than diverting other news storys from my TV and Radio for a while, certainly no real negative impact. Same deal with Kwanza, it hurts no one that I can see but we are not on this board to actually DO anything, we are pretty much her (in this forum in particular) to *debate things which may or may not affect any of us. Does Kwanza exclude non-blacks by intent? I have no idea. But it does exclud non-blacks in the same way other organizations have been accused of doing so, by making no effort to be inclusice of other ethnicities. It’s not like this is a big deal, and even if every black person in this country was into Kwanza it would still only be a small percentage of the populace engaged in it. So again, it’s not a big deal.

But, the argument is similar to the one about the Boy Scouts excluding Gays and in the past excluding blacks or other minorities. It is a private organization or activity that does not benefit from state or federal funding so they have every right to exclude who they want, but don’t pretend it isn’t happening. Now of course thee is one major difference, obviously Kwanza is not an organization. I can go buy parephanelia and practice Kwanza all I want, no one can stop me (I don’t think) so It cannot actively dissuade me from participation. But then again the basic tenants of Kwanza are not intended for me, or for anyone else who does not self-identify themselves as being of African descent. Specifically black African descent. I can’t for the life of me see why this is even an issue of contention. Hey, guess what none of us got invited to any Luddite gatherings either. It’s reasonable to assume Luddites don’t include computer geeks. Is that a controversial statement? Of course not. It’s just obvious. The only time it would become a point of argument is is someone made the ridiculous assertation that Luddites were not exclusionary.

I don’t think anyone would be getting so riled up about this if the core activity did not involve ehtnic heritage.

tomdeb

As for your unfamiliarity with ethnic festivals, I nderstand that those are not found throughout the entire U.S. I assure you, however, that in ethnic enclaves (mostly through the rust-belt, but with a few scattered in other pockets of the country), they are a really big deal and they very definitely are aimed at their specific ethnic group–just as Kwanzaa was originally intended. The principal difference is that those celebrations have become money-making events, inspiring the organizers to invite lots of outsiders to join in (and bring cash) while Kwanzaa has still maintained a mostly spiritual bent.

The only holiday you mentioned that I haven’t seen her was the Greek festival. Like I said and will say again, all the other ones we have and involve people of all ethnicities. Maybe it isn’t like that where you are from, but here it is. Our biggest (much bigger than Patty’s day) cultural holiday in Portland is the 5th of May. Now I’m not Mexican, didn’t even take Spanish in HS, but I can drink XX with the best of them and eat more churros than you any time. Of course including non Mexicans (or whatever depending on the holiday) is about them money, but that is American. We are all about thge money here. Shit, I’m a heebe with a Christmas tree. How did they bag me? Consumerism. I celibrate Colombus day too, and he was working for the Spanish the same people who gave us Torquemada (my people just loved his work). Money may be a less than noble reason for making your cultural holiday (whatever it may be) more inclusive, but the end results are terrific. What the hell is so bad about a desire for a holiday where all peoples venerated African culture? I sure as hell could go for a holiday where I can get Igali or Irio menu components in my local grocery instead of having to hunt all over town for chapatis bread and mango ice cream. In the end what you are talking about smells a lot like “sperate but equal” which is still segregation. I don’t like it when the opressor does it any more than when the opressed do it, but at least the opressor gets called on it.

[pldennison]

You’re bringing up a straw man. Sure, it is never explicitly stated that Kwaanza is a rejection of
Christmas. But that doesn’t change the fact that this is part of what Kwaanza is about.

Wait, wait, wait . . . Aren’t you arguing on another thread in this same forum that you started that Constitutional interpretation should be limited to the words as written on the page and not to interpretation or opinion about what they are supposed to mean? You switch horses mid-stream like that, you’re liable to break a leg, son!

[The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz]

Peoples of true Hebrew Jewish descent like myself are not caucasians.

As wrong as the day is long, my man. Check out your nearest conveniently located encyclopedia or http://www.britannica.com and you’ll see what I mean.

True, you can be a Jew and not be a Semite (which is why I excluded specifically European Jews, many of which as Slavic or Eurasian). I’m light brown. Not white, or pink, or any other color. My ancestry is primarily from North Africa and Araby with some Northern European and Native American (Lakota) on my fathers side.

So in other words you’re white until it comes time to join a country club.

The link provided (the one that worked anyhow) simply ratified

He’p me! He’p me! I feel like I been RATIFIED!

information pertaining to some African people having a common genetic link to Semetic Jews.

The ancient people of the world, they did a lot of fucking.

A point which actually demonstrates that there is a discernable difference between offay and Jews, otherwise the link would have been about how the African tribes mentioned had “white” genes. Hell, I could have told you that. Sycle Cell is another thing white people don’t have to contend with (if you are white and have it, you ain’t all white. Not by a long shot.)

Apparently mediterrenean types are somewhat pre-disposed to it, which suggests they’re more closely related to the people they only had to sail the peaceful sea to go visit than the people you had to walk through the big forest or brave the vast ocean to pay a call on. In the olden times, you thought about how many bears or squalls lay between you and the land where chicks gave it up for trinkets. Still, I think you’re beggaring the concept of “white” as applied in this thread if you don’t include Jews and Greeks and Italians. Until you say something like “So what am I? A schmeggema? Tac, I’m all kerplitzed” no one knows you’re Jewish, and so you’re white for all intented purposes.

“Jews Are White”. uh huh. I suppose that explains all them pictures of Jeebus with his blue eyes and blond hair.

http://christusrex.org/www1/sistine/40-Christ.jpg
http://gayheroes.com/leon_gallery.htm
http://btr0xw.rz.uni-bayreuth.de/cjackson/raphael/p-raphael5.htm
http://pez.uark.edu/gallery/donatello.html
http://www.ricks.edu/Ricks/Employee/DavisR/Art/Grunewald,%20Crucifixion,%20Isenheim%20Alter.JPG

[peace]

Is there at least one Black (African-American, African) person who CELEBRATES Kwanza? I’d like to know what is actually celebrated, if anything. I mean, any holiday celebrates something: a real or maid up anniversary, or a day on which we recall the Goodness of God, etc. Even on Valentine’s day we celebrate the loved ones or bird’s mating or SOMETHING. So, what IS celebrated on Kwanza day? I am not interested in white liberal rambling about Kwanza meaning for black people. I want to know a Black’s opinion: what is celebrated? And how (apart from eating and drinking). TIA.

Peace

[Alessan]

Until you say something like “So what am I? A schmeggema? Tac, I’m all kerplitzed” no one knows you’re Jewish, and so you’re white for all intented purposes.

Dufuz, never speak Yiddish to a Morroccan Jew. They’re liable to become violent, and rightfully so. Unless you know Ladino, you’d better shut up.

And Zen, don’t be exclusive of European Jews. One of the most basic tenants of Jewish thought is that all Jews are one People, so if you’re not white, than neither is poor, Russian-Lithuanian me.

[Stuffy]

Here’s a Kwanza info site, including history, celebrations and such. Hope it helps. Follow the link

BTW, didn’t see any anti-anybody stuff there, sorry to disappoint those saying otherwise. Want my opinion, see my 12% thread in the pit.

P.S. No, I don’t celebrate Kwanza, nor do I know anyone who does.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by zen101 *
Special note on St Patricks Day as it relates to Kwanza. On St Patricks day “everyone is Irish.”. Maybe if the mottoe of Kwanza was “The time of year when everyone is African.” and I could wear my daishiki to work w/o looking to the “stupid Jew that dresses funny.” it would be cool.

Out of curiousity, Zen101, have you (a) actually tried wearing your daishiki to work for Kwanza, and (b) got laughed at for it? Or are you cooking up an imaginary scenario to “prove” a point?

(I think I’ll do that next year – convince all my non-African-American friends to dress up and celebrate Kwanza, just for the fun of it… )

[peace]

Zen, where did you get your knowledge? About the Jews and sicle cell anemia, in particular? Was it the same Zen school they taught you about Kwanza?

Peace

[Biggirl]

Let’s start all over again.

Those of you who feel Kwanzaa is exclusive (I see the anti-Christmas theme as been dropped), please give evidence of this. I mean besides “I think it is”.

What I see so far as evidence is:

1. A black man made it up during the civil rights struggle.
2. It’s the day after Christmas.
3. Black people celebrate it.

Now, look closely at this thread and the link provided for the other Kwanzaa thread. The only person on this board who says they actually celebrate Kwanzaa at home is, in fact, a white person.
Oh, and The Ryan, neat trick taking my words out of context and using them to prove your non-exsistant point. Of course that statement supports what you have been saying since I was paraphrasing your ignorant belief.

Come on people, let’s try to put some facts into this debate.

[Ptahlis]

*Originally posted by Biggirl *
**Let’s start all over again.

Those of you who feel Kwanzaa is exclusive (I see the anti-Christmas theme as been dropped), please give evidence of this. I mean besides “I think it is”.

snip

Come on people, let’s try to put some facts into this debate.
**

I went to the link provided by stuffinb above. The page is called the Kwanzaa Information Center. I clicked on the link to read about the history of Kwanzaa. (http://www.melanet.com/kwanzaa/whatis.html#history) Here is what it had to say:

KWANZAA, the African-American spiritual celebration, was conceived and developed by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga on December 26, 1966. The foundation of Kwanzaa is based on the cultural principles of a theory called Kawaida, which maintains that social revolutionary change for Black Americans can be achieved by fully realizing our cultural heritage.

Throughout the sixties, community-based groups adopted a number of ideologies to assist Black Americans obtain social changes during the Civil Rights era of America. The Kawaida theory offered several conditions that would enhance the revolutionary social change for the masses of Black Americans. The first was the exploitation of Black America in October, November, and December (the Christmas season), when White America ignored the quality of life concerns felt by Black Americans, yet encouraged us to participate in the commercialism of Christmas.

Later on the same page:

Kwanzaa has definite principles, practices and symbols which are geared to the social and spiritual needs of African-Americans.

Finally, the concept of Kwanzaa, the African-American holiday, is to help Black Americans relate to the past in order to understand the present and deal with the future.

Now, as far as exclusivity goes, you are entirely correct that anyone can decide to celebrate Kwanzaa if they so choose. Be that as it may, it certainly looks to me like Kwanzaa is a holiday created by and for the black populace. Also, they certainly seem to say that it is intended as a possible alternative to Christmas.

As I said before, I don’t care whether you or anybody else celebrates Kwanzaa, Christmas, Hannukah, or any other holiday. However, what I read here and elsewhere certainly seems to support the ideas you are arguing against, rather than for. Kwanzaa is about being African American, and its location on the calendar is not a coincidence.

[JerseyDiamond]

casion

*Originally posted by The Crimson Hipster Dufuz *
**Just random things that I felt I had to tell you what I thought about.

Jerseydiamond:

Question, would you/anyone consider it racist\homophobic if someone invented straight pride day?

Sugarpop, every day is straight pride day.

Ok sweetheart :p, but to a gay person, isn’t everyday gay pride day?
If a random group of straight people decided to make a ‘straight pride day’ or have a straight pride parade, it would be considered racist or evil.

[Stuffy]

Ptahlis I’m not sure of the motives of your last post. I don’t think anyone argued that the holiday was not a created holiday for black americans, though I admit to only a cursory reading of this thread. Looking towards the top of my screen the OP says Kwanza is anti-white, I see no such evidence for that assertion. I also don’t read into that information, about it being a replacement for Xmas. Maybe you could point that out?

[The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz]

Ok sweetheart , but to a gay person, isn’t everyday gay pride day?

No, I think it’s often “pretend not to be gay” day. Or “Careful who you say that around” day. No PDA’s day, that’s probably popular within the gay community. Do you get it yet?

If a random group of straight people decided to make a ‘straight pride day’ or have a straight pride parade, it would be considered racist or evil.

It would presumably carry “othering” connotations, and anyway, it seems “heterosexual” is implicit in those other pride displays. heterosexuals, though, are allowed to participate in gay pride displays; you often see people marching in the parades who claim to be the proud parents of queer kids or “Friends of Gays, Lesbians, and Werewolf fuckers” holding a pep rally somewhere. Are there organizations for gay cops? Do the gay Irish get to march in the Irish day parade?

You know, it’s like a friend of mine was complaining about BET. “Where’s WET? White Entertainment Television?” and I looked at him and said "They already have it, it’s called “NBC.” Those must be the only six people in New York, Phoebe and Rachel and whoever else, don’t know any black people.

A foolish symmetry, it seems.

[JerseyDiamond]

The Crimson Hipster Dufuz

No, I think it’s often “pretend not to be gay” day. Or “Careful who you say that around” day. No PDA’s day, that’s probably popular within the gay community. Do you get it yet?

No, I guess I don’t get it, cause when I’m with a group of people different from me, I don’t pretend to be anything other than what I am.
Why would anyone have to pretend not to be gay, is it obvious?
Let’s see, if a girl named Judy greets a person with “Hi, my name is Judy, how are you today?”, that seems fine, but wouldn’t it be strange for her to say " Hi, my name is Judy and I am gay. How are you today?", even for her to say “I am straight, how are you today?” would be off! Why pretend to be anything? Why not just be nice and not worry that we have to tell someone our sexual preference?!
[/quote]

The Crimson Hipster Dufuz

[/quote]

It would presumably carry “othering” connotations, and anyway, it seems “heterosexual” is implicit in those other pride displays. heterosexuals, though, are allowed to participate in gay pride displays; you often see people marching in the parades who claim to be the proud parents of queer kids or “Friends of Gays, Lesbians, and Werewolf fuckers” holding a pep rally somewhere. Are there organizations for gay cops? Do the gay Irish get to march in the Irish day parade?
[/quote]

Why in the world do we need a special occasion because of someones sexual preference? I’m sure if gay cops wanted an organization, they could have one, but whats that got to do with the price of apples in China? I’m sure if the gay Irish wanted to march in the Irish day parade they could. People make things difficult for themselves.
The Crimson Hipster Dufuz

You know, it’s like a friend of mine was complaining about BET. “Where’s WET? White Entertainment Television?” and I looked at him and said "They already have it, it’s called “NBC.” Those must be the only six people in New York, Phoebe and Rachel and whoever else, don’t know any black people.

A foolish symmetry, it seems. **

So, would it be a problem for someone to come out with WET?
My only point is, you should’t do something in one race or religion, and not let it be acceptable in another, and that’s exactly what’s happening!

[The_Ryan]

*Originally posted by tomndebb *
No, you’re not. You are imposing a meaning on it for which you have provided no supporting evidence from the celebrants.

I’m “imposing” a meaning? What, am I not allowed to express my opinion? If you had wanted evidence, you should have asked for it, instead of saying “well, gee, you might be wrong”.

If supporters of Kwanzaa have not explicitly rejected Christmas, any meaning of that sort that you impose on it comes from your own beliefs.

Are you really trying to say that Kwanzaa has no meaning other than what its supporters explicitly say? If the supporters of the KKK never explicitly state that it is a racist organization, does that make it not racist?

Considering the rather small percentage of the black community that even engages in Kwanzaa celebrations, and all this talk of “exclusion” and “rejection” really does look like frightened white folks worrying over nothing.

What is wrong with you people? Why can’t we have a civil discussion without ad hominem attacks?