Isn't celebrating Kwanza just being anti-white?

[tomndebb]

Since there are not a lot of people actually celebrating Kwanzaa, the TV News folks are always out looking for Kwanzaa celebrations to tape. In the last dozen years, I have never seen a Kwanzaa celebration that occurred in a community center or church that did not include a few white folks. (The Kwanzaa celebrations that occur in people’s homes aren’t going to have as many whites, obviously.)

The only thing that makes Kwanzaa appear exclusive is that no one has figured a way to make a dollar on the event.

Everyone can get drunk on St. Paddy’s day or at Oktoberfest or eat egg rolls on the Chinese New Year and party down on Cinco de Mayo because the bar owners and restaurateurs want to make a buck and they invite everyone down to spend money. Everyone can turn out for a good time for the Feast of the Assumption in Little Italy or at the local Byzantine or Orthodox church for the Feast of St. Nicholas because those (generally church-sponsored) events are being used to raise funds for the sponsoring organization.

Since no one has bothered to set up a money-making hook for Kwanzaa, people tend to leave it alone. This does not indicate that it is exclusive; it indicates that it is ignored.

[Biggirl]

*Originally posted by quixotic78 *

**But Kwanzaa is not inclusive, even though anyone can celebrate it if they want. Because it’s black. It was invented by a black man. It celebrates what was hoped would become good priciples to live by. It is exclusive.

**

Yes, it is exclusive–and I don’t even think that the race of the creator has anything to do with it. If Kwanzaa were started by a Chinese man from Kenya, and still celebrated African culture, it’d still be exclusive. It is exclusive, oddly enough, because certain people (i.e., non-blacks) are excluded.

Certain people are not excluded. If certain people choose to exclude themselves because they feel someone is “looking at them funny”, then that is not the fault of Kwanzaa, it is the fault of this highly sensitive individual. I will reiterate what I said in my previous post. In the 2 Kwanzaa threads I’ve participated in on this messageboard, the only person who actually celebrates it at home is a white person.

*Originally posted by quixotic78 *
Great, keep playing that race card. No no, don’t evaluate the arguments against your position on the basis of merit. Just assume that everyone who thinks differently than you is doing so because they’re racist.

I’m playing the race card? By saying Kwanzaa is not exclusive? By pointing out that white people can and do celebrate Kwanzaa? I’m playing the race card and your point is that white people feel excluded because if you are white and want to buy a Kwanzaa card, people look at you funny. I didn’t put the card in the deck. I’d like to see that card ripped to shreds and the tatters burned and the ashes buried. But as long as people feel de facto excluded from a pro-black celebration but don’t feel de facto excluded from a pro-Irish, pro-christian and pro-anything else but black, what am I to assume?

*Originally posted by quixotic78 *
I reiterate–I don’t give two shits about Kwanzaa. This is Great Debates. I debate stuff. I don’t protest Black Entertainment Television (hell, I watch it.)
**

You should protest BET. It’s crap! But that’s a completely different debate.

[Tominator2]

If certain people choose to exclude themselves because they feel someone is “looking at them funny”, then that is not the fault of Kwanzaa, it is the fault of this highly sensitive individual.

woohoo! Blame the victim!

[The_Ryan]

Tom, what the hell is your problem? Why are you unable to respond to what I say, and instead feel compelled to respond to what you are pretending I said?

*Originally posted by tomndebb *
You tell tell just by looking at them? Without the context of their words or deeds? (“whether in words or deeds”)

I never said that I can do that. I said that I can make judgements based on what they say, even if what they say isn’t explicitly racist. Are you incapable of seeing that word? Is there a big blank spot in your vision between the words “isn’t” and “racist”?

I’d say that your repeated rhetorical questions on the subject indicate a pretty strong insistence that “they are acting in a racist manner.”

Yet again you are making up stuff. You were able to find only one rhetorical question (and in case you were unaware, the word “repeated” requires more than one instance), and it wasn’t even on the subject of whether Kwanzaa is racist, it was on the subject of whether Christmas is racist. Clearly, you are full of shit.

You rejected the possibility that there were other explanations by opposing “might” with “does”

No, I acknowledged the possibility of other explanationss, while expressing my belief that these explanations are not true.

I’m sorry if you are then offended when someone “just knows” that you are accusing supporters of Kwanzaa of racism when it a point you bring up with a certain frequency.

Yes, and that frequency would be zero.

Your claims during your attempt to act the martyr are not borne out by a review of the thread.

Yet another ridiculous claim. I have never attempted to act the martyr.

In your very first post, here, you made the unsubstantiated (and, actually, false) claim that supporters of Kwanzaa were “going out of their way to reject Christmas.”

No I didn’t. I implied it, but I did not claim it.

You them claimed that what celebrants of Kwanzaa were doing (in the privacy of their own homes) was analogous to “loudly singing the British national anthem while everyone else is singing the American one.”

No, I never said anything about what people do in the privacy of their own homes. What I was talking about was how they comport themselves in public.

Since that time, you have made repeated assertions, never supported by facts.

I have supported several of my claims.

In this post alone, I count five explicit statements made by you that are false, and three implicit statements that are false, which makes your statement above rather hypocritical.

Now, if you want to claim that you have never acted in a hostile fashion on this thread, you are free to believe that, but I say the evidence is against you.

It’s interesting that you unable to cite any such evidence.

[tomndebb]

Why are you unable to respond to what I say, and instead feel compelled to respond to what you are pretending I said?

I am not pretending what you said. I am inferring very carefully what you are implying. You stated that Kwanzaa implied that Christmas was racist. You provided no evidence for you inference. The original statement by the founder was that blacks had been left out of the society which was celebrating Christmas. Jumping to the notion that Christmas, itself, is racist requires more information and you have not supplied any.

You then made the utterly invalid comparison of a group singing conflicting anthems in public.

No, I never said anything about what people do in the privacy of their own homes. What I was talking about was how they comport themselves in public.

However, Kwanzaa is not celebrated “publicly” so your comparison is invalid. Beyond that, implying that your original statement was intended to be a comment on the (non-existent) public activities leans very close to falsehood.

I have supported several of my claims.

No, you have repeated assertions. You have provided no evidence to support your conclusions.

By carefully leaving little trickles of implication in your posts, you require anyone else to restate your points to examine them. At that point you leap out and cry “Those were not my exact words!”

Tough.

If you want to state a specific thesis as you did over on the 13th Amendment thread, fine. (If you want to support your opinions with facts, that is even better.)

If you are simply going to drop little half-formed thoughts into an ongoing discussion, you will have to put up with other posters trying to figure our what the rest of your thoughts look like. When you start out with errors of fact (as you did in this thread), our interpretations may be other than what you would like to see.

[nOmega]

*Originally posted by matt_mcl *
I would be very interested to hear your feelings on gay pride day (or maybe I wouldn’t). After all, that was a “created” holiday too, to bring together a particular oppressed group of people.

Excuse me, what?

**And unless it’s at the end of June, you can’t really argue that it’s commemorating anything.

So, let’s have it. If Kwanzaa is racist, does that mean that Gay Pride Day is heterophobic? **

It’s unfairly discriminatory, like the Ministry for Women.

[The_Ryan]

*Originally posted by tomndebb *
I am not pretending what you said.

Of the five explicit and three implicit mischaracterizerations of me, you addressed only two, and refuted exactly none.

Jumping to the notion that [Kwanzaa implies that] Christmas, itself, is racist requires more information and you have not supplied any.

I see no reason why I must prove every single belief that I have. I specifically said “I think that…”, strongly implying that that what followed was my personal opinion on the matter, and not a claim that I expect people to accept as proven. Perhaps if you weren’t so busy inferring stuff I never implied, you would notice what I am implying.

You then made the utterly invalid comparison of a group singing conflicting anthems in public.

You have provided no reason for why this comparison is invalid.

However, Kwanzaa is not celebrated “publicly” so your comparison is invalid. Beyond that, implying that your original statement was intended to be a comment on the (non-existent) public activities leans very close to falsehood.

So what, exactly, are these people doing?

No, you have repeated assertions. You have provided no evidence to support your conclusions.

Did you not notice the irony of this? When I pointed out that I have supported my assertions, you provided no evidence that I haven’t, but simply repeated your assertion.

Here of some counter examples to your claim (assertions italic, evidence bold):

But Kwaanza’s noninlusiveness is a fundamental part of its nature. **It was conceived with the purpose of giving black something to share, and of denying whites that something. **

Come to think of this, this statement supports my position [that implicit in Kwanzaa is the belief that Christmas is not for black people*]. You clearly refer to Christmas as being a “white” holiday, and Kwaanza being a “black” holiday. How can you say that that is not racist?

[I think that, at the very least, implicit in Kwaanza is the claim that Christmas is racist.]The overall way that Kwanzaa is presented makes me feel that it is exclusionary.

**
You are imposing a meaning on it for which you have provided no supporting evidence from the celebrants.

**
*You clearly [are] saying that since my opinion was wrong, I had no right to express it. *

That’s four examples, three more than are necessary to refute a claim of non-existennce.

By carefully leaving little trickles of implication in your posts, you require anyone else to restate your points to examine them.

If you are unable to deal with ambiguity without putting words in people’s mouths, that’s not my fault. If you are unsure about what I mean, tell me what confuses you and I’ll do my best to clear the matter up. Simply creating straw men argument because you don’t understand my actual arguments is not a legitimate solution.

At that point you leap out and cry “Those were not my exact words!”

I’ve never objected simply because they aren’t my exact words; what I’ve objected to is it no being what I said.

If you are simply going to drop little half-formed thoughts into an ongoing discussion, you will have to put up with other posters trying to figure our what the rest of your thoughts look like.

I don’t have a problem with people trying to figure out what the rest of my thoughts look like. What I have a problem wtih, and what I’ve been complaining about, is you just assuming you know what the rest of my thoughts look like.

When you start out with errors of fact (as you did in this thread), our interpretations may be other than what you would like to see.

What error in fact? Are you disputing my claim that I think that implicit in Kwanzaa is the claim that Christmas is racist? Do you think that I don’t really believe that?

[tomndebb]

That’s four examples, three more than are necessary to refute a claim of non-existennce.

Aside from your exchange with BigGirl, in which you draw a debateable conclusion, every point you made is nothing more than an assertion of your feelings. You have shown no evidence that either the founder of Kwanzaa or any current practitioners actually have announced an intent to exclude whites or anyone else.

What error in fact? Are you disputing my claim that I think that implicit in Kwanzaa is the claim that Christmas is racist? Do you think that I don’t really believe that?

Originally:

I think that, at the very least, implicit in Kwaanza is the claim that Christmas is racist. Not celebrating Christams is one thing. But going out of one’s way to reject it is quite another. It’s like the difference between not singing the national anthem, and loudly singing the British national anthem while everyone else is singing the American one.

Whatever your opinion, it is an error of fact to claim that he claimed that Christmas was racist. (I know, you only claimed that it was an opinion.) However, the founder claimed that Christmas was celebrated by a racist society that rejected blacks. There is no statement that Christmas is racist. That is an error.

Your comparison of the singing the conflicting anthems is in error because they do not go out of their way to reject Christmas in any way that causes them to get in the face of a celebrant of Christmas and oppose them. (In fact, many Kwanzaa celebrations are held in Christian churches.)

Incorrect conclusion of fact (expressed as opinion). Horribly wrong analogy. Everything else you have provided is simply you nit-picking at people who have made assumptions about your opinions based on your original errors (which you have never corrected).

You can voice whatever opinion you wish, but you are hardly persuasive.

[Count_of_MonteCristo]

If Kwanza is considered a racist holiday what about Hanukah or Ramadan. What about Christmas for that matter? What is wrong for a group of people to celebrate their ethnic/cultural bacround. How does celebrating Kwanza is anit-white? According, to your logic (which is erroneous) isn’t Christmas an anti-black holiday. Isn’t Christmas an anti-Jew holiday? No, it’s not. Celebrating our diversity is pride. I think this is what America is all about.

[zen101]

*Originally posted by Count_of_MonteCristo *
**If Kwanza is considered a racist holiday what about Hanukah or Ramadan. What about Christmas for that matter? What is wrong for a group of people to celebrate their ethnic/cultural bacround. How does celebrating Kwanza is anit-white? According, to your logic (which is erroneous) isn’t Christmas an anti-black holiday. Isn’t Christmas an anti-Jew holiday? No, it’s not. Celebrating our diversity is pride. I think this is what America is all about. **

The difference is secular holidas vs ethnic holidays. You can covnert to Islam, Judaism, or Christian if not born to it and this usually does not exclude you due to your race of birth. The argument here is that Kwanza was develpped for a holiday exclusive to Americans of black African descent and is therefore exclusive to blacks. You bring in a interesting point, America is thought to be very much about diversity, but it is also interesting that segregation is not diversity and does not promote diversity. It is exclusionary. It promotes isolationism. It’s the same thing to some degree that the white sepratists use to claim little segregated areas in our nation with the intent of “preserving their white European heritage”. Nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to preserve one’s heritage and to promote pride in ones self via the promotion of one’s ancestors. However I would argue that it is quite un-American to do so in a manner which excludes others from participation. No matter what the intent is.

** The Ryan**: I do agree with some of what you say in regards to the exclusive nature of this secular holiday I would have to agree with tomdebb in that there are some assumptions that you are making or seem to be makinf about Kwanza that don’t seem to hold much water factually. Now while it is blatantly obvious that you do believe what you are saying this forum is Great Debates and not IMHO which is opinion based and therefore not someplace where one is usually asked to ratify a statement with cites and evidence. Also I would have to say that I don’t think that Kwanza is inherirently racist even though it is inheriently exclusionary. Certainly some participants may be and probably are racist, but I don’t think that was the intent. Kwanza was created in a time when there was very little cultural inclusion of the black American in America socially and as a whole. Kwanza was designed with the intent to show a people who had no source of pride in the media that they did indeed have a rich heritage as worthy as any Anglo even if they didn’t get the airtime or book publishing offers. I don’t see that as intent to be racist, simply self-promoting and at the time of it’s inception such self-promotion was in dire need. But that does not make Kwanza racist by nature even if it is segregationist in practice.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by quixotic78 *
So, riddle me this–why the hell was I given such a look by the cashier?

What does the cashier’s personal intolerance problem have anything to do with the editors, writers, and staff of Seventeen magazine? It’s the cashier’s hang-up; don’t blame the magazine for it.

(In fact, if you were to try and sue the cashier for harassment over your purchase, I’ll bet the staff of Seventeen would be glad to support you. I suspect they don’t care who buys their magazine as long as they sell lots of copies.)

[rjung]

*Originally posted by quixotic78 *
Suppose I went to a Kwanzaa service and started saying, “Woo! Let’s hear it for cooperative economics!” Would I receive funny looks? You betcha. No, I don’t have any “cites” for this, I don’t have any testimonials, I don’t have any studies showing 79% of white men who attended Kwanzaa services were discriminated against.

I’m sorry, but you’ve just blown your credibility there. “I’ve got a claim, but nothing to back it up with” – that might fly over at the Rush Limbaugh School of Speculative Arguments, but not at the SD (at least, not if we’re keeping in the spirit of fighting ignorance).

I went to an American Baptist service once, and was the only white person there. Yes, I did receive stares, and felt uncomfortable. Even though Christianity doesn’t contain any “Hate the white man” clauses, I felt discriminated against in this church.

So it’s an American Baptist problem. What’s it got to do with Kawaanza? Or do you wish to imply that because (I’m guessing here) the American Baptists were black and treated you impolitely, then all black people will treat you impolitely at a Kawaanza gathering?

If it helps, pretend I’m Chinese. Hell, pretend I’m a black man. Then look at my points.

I am Chinese. And your points aren’t carrying water.

[Count_of_MonteCristo]

*Originally posted by zen101 *
**

You bring in a interesting point, America is thought to be very much about diversity, but it is also interesting that segregation is not diversity and does not promote diversity. It is exclusionary. It promotes isolationism.

**
[/QUOTE]

If you could please explain to me how celebrating Kwanza is segregation; that would be helpful. How does celebrating Kwanza promote isolationism?

[erislover]

I say fuck all holidays. They are poor excuses for time off work, reasons to get drunk and/or high, or both. Fuck 'em.

I say give me an extra week of vacation a year to take when I want and forget the rest of it. Besides, when the infamous family members call to see what I’m “doing for the holidays” I can say I’m working…and mean it.

Ok, so I’m mostly joking. But I do agree that Kwaanza feels pretty schmucky. I mean, how much more of our differences do we need to “officially” recognize before we’re equal? (intended to sound strange, yes)

[zev_steinhardt]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zen101 *
**

Tradition and law allows for a Jew to convert or to assume the local religeon if his life is in danger.
**

Minor nitpick, zen101, but Jewish law and tradition do not allow a Jew to convert to or assume another religion if his/her life is in danger. Converting to another religion is one is one of the few things which a Jew cannot do, even if threatened with his life.

Zev Steinhardt

[Gaudere]

[hijack]Are you allowed to lie, or pretend to convert? I know in Spain some anusim secretly practiced Judaism although they pretended to be Christian; were they supposed to have let themselves be killed rather than give the outward appearance of conversion?[/hijack]

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Gaudere *
**[hijack]Are you allowed to lie, or pretend to convert? I know in Spain some anusim secretly practiced Judaism although they pretended to be Christian; were they supposed to have let themselves be killed rather than give the outward appearance of conversion?[/hijack] **

I’m not certain. I know the Marranos gave the outward appearence of Christians while continuing to practice Judaism secretly. I’d have to look into the actual ramifications of it. However, I’m pretty sure that actively engaging in acts of other religions (baptism or accepting Communion, for example) would be forbidden.

Zev Steinhardt

[Mercutio]

By this same mentality, couldnt I just say being christian and going to church is anti-atheist, anti-catholic and antisemetic?
The only thing unamerican in this thread is people bashing Kwaanza.
Hell, people should practice whatver they want in the confinement of the laws, and im some cases, I support doing things outside the confinement of the laws.
I’m not saying lets go raping and killing to celebrate the holidays, but if you like rolling a joint under the mistletoe each year, go ahead. I could care less.
To be redoundant, if it’s not harming anyone, wheres the harm?

[The_Ryan]

*Originally posted by tomndebb *
Aside from your exchange with BigGirl, in which you draw a debateable conclusion, every point you made is nothing more than an assertion of your feelings.

I don’t think that, in this sort of debate, there is much evidence other than feelings. What sort of evidence do blacks present to support their claim that racism still exists? Mostly stuff like “When I go into a store, I feel like the clerk is paying extra attention to me to make sure I don’t steal anything.” Is that evidence invalid?

You have shown no evidence that either the founder of Kwanzaa or any current practitioners actually have announced an intent to exclude whites or anyone else.

Why should I present evidence for a claim I have not made?

Whatever your opinion, it is an error of fact to claim that he claimed that Christmas was racist. (I know, you only claimed that it was an opinion.) However, the founder claimed that Christmas was celebrated by a racist society that rejected blacks. There is no statement that Christmas is racist. That is an error.

I wasn’t talking about the founder. I was talking about Kwanzaa. And your statements support my claim that there is an implicit claim that Christmas is racist. If someone says “Christmas is celebrated by a racist society, so we’re going to have another holiday”, I think there’s a pretty clear implication there.

Your comparison of the singing the conflicting anthems is in error because they do not go out of their way to reject Christmas in any way that causes them to get in the face of a celebrant of Christmas and oppose them.

Singing a different song is not “getting in the face” of those singing the American National Anthem.

[quixotic78]

*Originally posted by rjung *
**

*Originally posted by quixotic78 *
So, riddle me this–why the hell was I given such a look by the cashier?

(In fact, if you were to try and sue the cashier for harassment over your purchase, I’ll bet the staff of Seventeen would be glad to support you. I suspect they don’t care who buys their magazine as long as they sell lots of copies.)
**

Yes, the staff of Seventeen would probably support me. But would they try to change their magazine’s content so that its image as a teenage girl magazine is diminished? Of course not. They enjoy their niche, I can only assume, or else they wouldn’t be there.

Who knows, maybe the Powers that Be of Kwanzaadom would support me if I tried to sue the organizers of a Kwanzaa event I felt to be discriminatory. But again, I make the distinction between what Kwanzaa officially says, and what it actually is in practice. Hell, the Ku Klux Klan is ostensibly a Christian organization, yet they practice a doctrine of hatred and intolerance completely outside of the teachings of Christianity. The organizers of Kwanzaa can say whatever they want about Kwanzaa being non-exclusive, but until the people who practice it make these statements true, Kwanzaa will be discriminatory.

**

I’m sorry, but you’ve just blown your credibility there. “I’ve got a claim, but nothing to back it up with” – that might fly over at the Rush Limbaugh School of Speculative Arguments, but not at the SD (at least, not if we’re keeping in the spirit of fighting ignorance).**

As already pointed out by The Ryan, there isn’t a whole lot of statistical data in the area of racism. Do you have any statistical proof to dispute my claim? Don’t bother arguing about burden of proof; it’s a rhetorical question. The point is that in areas of discrimination, testimonials and feelings receive merit that they wouldn’t receive in hard sciences. If you DO have some statistics saying, “82% of white men who attended Kwanzaa services felt like they belonged,” I’d love to see them. I’m not being facetious; such statistics would be interesting.

**

So it’s an American Baptist problem. What’s it got to do with Kawaanza? Or do you wish to imply that because (I’m guessing here) the American Baptists were black and treated you impolitely, then all black people will treat you impolitely at a Kawaanza gathering?**

It’s an imperfect comparison, and I admitted as much. I’m not saying that all black people will treat me impolitely; I’m contending that being the lone white guy at an event geared entirely toward another culture, as with the African culture in Kwanzaa, is not exactly a “friendly” situation, official Kwanzaa rhetoric of inclusiveness be damned.

Originally posted by Mercutio
By this same mentality, couldnt I just say being christian and going to church is anti-atheist, anti-catholic and antisemetic?

The difference here is that Kwanzaa is claiming to be inclusive, but it’s really not. Christianity makes no bones about saying, “If you’re not in our club, then you’re going to hell.” Naturally, that’s a blanket statement, and doesn’t apply to ALL denominations of Christianity, but the point’s still valid.

Quix