No. It is not true that every element of a society permeated by racism must, itself be racist. I have found no evidence that any celebrant or proponent of Kwanzaa rejects the celebration of Christmas, only that they feel the need to have a celebration either in addition to or (if they do not celebrate Christmas), to provide an alternative community-enhancing celebration. The claim appears to be that Christmas alone does not fullfill the needs of the community, not that Christmas should be rejected.
I would certainly not accept some person’s “feelings,” but that is not the evidence provided that racism exists.
Racism has been identified in cases where pairs of black and white applicants are sent separately to seek the same jobs or housing and the white applicants are consistently accepted more frequently than the blacks with identical (or better) qualifications. Racism is identified when numerous police departments are found to use racial profiling–some even admitting the practice. Racism is identified when the officers of Texaco are caught on tape planning ways to thwart equal opportunity in hiring and promotion in their company and making racist jokes about it. Racism in the U.S. is identified by much more solid evidence than “feelings” and portraying “feelings” as the sole or principle evidence for racism is an absurd straw man.
Evidence that Kwanzaa was racist would generally consist of statements by participants that they do not want white people hanging around or that “only blacks” could “understand” the meaning of Kwanzaa. In contrast, I have found most of the declarations by Kwanzaa organizers to be welcoming of all peoples. Even on a few web sites that tout absurd notions of historical revisionism where all civilization are supposed to have arisen only from black efforts, on the pages that discuss Kwanzaa I have found no anti-white or black supremacist statements. If the people participating are not declaring either exclusion or superiority, it is pretty silly to make an inference based on “feelings” that they probably want to be racist or exclusionary.
Then what in the world was the point of this analogy?
You are all saying that Kwanzaa is not explicitly exclusive, yet you all feel excluded because you are not black. In effect, you are excluding yourselves and then accusing Kwanzaa of being exclusive. How backward.
Why would they feel a need to change the contents of their entire magazine just to combat the small-minded stereotypes of a cashier somewhere in Anytown, USA? This is a problem on a personal level (our cashier, in this case), and it should be corrected there.
Of course, the claim that “the people who practice [Kwanzaa]” are being exclusive remains unsupported. You’re setting up a straw man argument here.
Why in the world do we need a special occasion because of someones sexual preference? I’m sure if gay cops wanted an organization, they could have one, but whats that got to do with the price of apples in China? I’m sure if the gay Irish wanted to march in the Irish day parade they could. People make things difficult for themselves.
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:deep cleansing breath:
JerseyDiamond, I’m sure you mean well, but you’re woefully ignorant in this area. For one tiny example germane to your question, the Boston St Patrick’s Day parade has explictly denied a gay Irish group from marching in the parade, a decision held up by the Massachusetts Supreme Court in 1995. (See http://faculty-web.at.nwu.edu/commstud/freespeech/cont/cases/glib.html) So no, in fact: gay cops could *not *make an organization and march in the Boston St Patrick’s Day parade.
Discrimination based on sexual orientation is not simply a matter of people making things difficult for themselves. If you’re interested in learning more, you could start with the Ask the Gay Guy thread.
First of all, I don’t feel excluded, nor did I say so. I could no more feel excluded by Kwanzaa than I could feel excluded by the Girl Scouts, or AARP, or Passover. In order to feel excluded I would personally have to have an interest in celebrating Kwanzaa, and then be prevented from doing so or made to feel unwelcome when I did so. Like these other things, Kwanzaa is not aimed at me. Its purpose does not intersect my life.
The information I quoted earlier from the Kwaanza information page indicated explicitly that Kwaanza is an African American holiday by intent. It was created and promoted for African Americans by African Americans. There is no official policy to keep white people out, therefore it is not exclusive by mandate. Nevertheless, its aims are exclusively geared to the black community as was stated in their own words:
(emphasis added)
Now, I am sorry that Kwaanza is not some great festival of inclusiveness geared towards alleviating everyone’s needs, but it is geared towards African Americans, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!!! It’s no different from any other ethnic festival in that regard as I’ve said before. I thought I made it perfectly clear earlier that pro-black is NOT the same as anti-white, so I can’t figure out why you have a problem with this whole idea of inclusiveness.
Look, if you do not accept my source, then refute it, and give reasons why. I will certainly listen to them. If you don’t accept the conclusions I draw from the information provided, then explain to me why I am in error, and I will listen. But please do not insist that I am threatened by Kwanzaa, or that I feel excluded, or that I think Kwanzaa is evil, or anti-Christmas. These are not my positions, as I thought I had established in my last post.
It’s not just a limited situation. As you said, the cashier could be in Anytown, USA. The cashier’s reaction isn’t limited to JUST THIS particular cashier. Extending the analogy to Kwanzaa, it’s not like one particular person in Baton Rouge, LA, for example, is going to look at me cock-eyed when I show up in blue jeans and a baseball cap. I could show up to a Kwanzaa celebration in… dare I say, Anytown, USA, and receive the same looks. These people, with their “small-minded stereotypes” are excluding me. Disclaimer: I’m not saying that all Kwanzaa celebrants are going to look at me cock-eyed. But it WILL happen.
**
Ok, I’ll remove the rhetoric and ask my question again, slightly modified. Why do you say Kwanzaa is not exclusive? Do you have any proof for YOUR claim? You’re fully justified in weasling out with a parroting of “burden of proof;” if that’s the case, then answer me this. What WOULD you accept as proof, given that statistical studies have not been done on this issue? (At least, none I could find on the Net). Personally, I’ll take the testimonials given on this board to show that SOMETHING may be amiss here. If, as so vehemently claimed, Kwanzaa fully embodied the inclusiveness it touts on its websites, then these testimonials would be conspicuously absent.
A female reporter enters the locker room of the team that wins Super Bowl XXXV. Her station asked the NFL for permission to enter, and the NFL granted that permission. While in the locker room, she feels “excluded,” despite the official OK of the NFL. Jeers, rude comments, looks, brazen nudity and advances… none of these are sanctioned by the NFL, and none of these are wanted by said female reporter. Biggirl pops in and notes that she is being oversensitive because she isn’t a man. What if 5 or 6 women reported the same feelings? All over-sensitive women? Because you’ve just accused 4 or 5 people of being oversensitive in a similar situation.
Just wanted to re-iterate I’ve been saying all along, but forgot to mention again in my last post. It’s FINE that Kwanzaa is pro-black, and exclusively pro-black. Just don’t say, “No, Kwanzaa isn’t pro-black! It’s open to everyone! It’s not exclusive!” That’s a ridiculous claim.
Just wanted to re-iterate something I’ve been saying all along, but forgot to mention again in my last post. It’s FINE that Kwanzaa is pro-black, and exclusively pro-black. Just don’t say, “No, Kwanzaa isn’t pro-black! It’s open to everyone! It’s not exclusive!” That’s a ridiculous claim.
Please be aware that opinion on Kwanzaa is divided in the black community.
A black cartoon called Boondocks just ran a series on this.
One father is confiding in the intellectual neighbor kid who wants to get people to celebrate it:
“Y’know, I think part of the problem with Kwanzaa is it kinda perpetuates this fallacy of a monolithic “African Culture”.”
Kid: “Hmm…expound…”
Father: “The intent is good, but the holiday ignores the variety and diversity of African cultures in favor of something oversimplified… even… genric.”
Kid: “Interesting. I think I can consider that a fair critique.”
Father: “And what’s with the candles? What is this, some kinda low-budget Hanukkah?”
Kid: “All right, all right! I get the point.”
So there’s a lot of stupid people out there (that probably explains where all the Dubya voters came from :)) who need educating and enlightenment. I still don’t see why it’s Seventeen’s responsibility to yield to their ignorance.
Pity them and their small minds.
You can’t prove a negative, remember? Besides, I think the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” would apply in this case – I trust Kwanzaa and its organizers to be friendly and inclusive until I’ve been shown otherwise.
Some firsthand testimony would be nice – “Here’s an article from the New York Times about a white couple who attended a Kwanzaa celebration and were barred access by the African-Americans who were there…” So far all I’ve seen is some vague handwaving about your personal discomfort, even though you’ve never been within spitting distance of any Kwanzaa ceremonies.
Yeah, you’re right. But that’s exactly my point (well, not exactly, but along the same lines). Kwanzaa shouldn’t necessarily change what it is… but they (or, perhaps, the proponents on this board) should stop claiming that it’s not exclusive. Then again, I think I’ve lost my original intent in bringing up the stupid magazine anyways.
**
No argument here.
** [Insert muttered dirty words, a la Yosemite Sam here] Well, FINE then, Mr. Technical, prove the positive: Kwanzaa is inclusive.
Yeah, true, I am relying on extrapolation from a situation which, while perhaps superficially similar, is admitedly flawed. Would you settle for something about people not being barred, but treated as “different” simply because they weren’t of African descent?
Could someone define what is meant by “cooperative economics”? From what I have been told, it means keeping money in the black community. If this is the case, it seems to me that this is exclusionary and discriminatory in itself. It discriminates against and excludes merchants that are not black.
I’m working on an experiment to test that. Unfortunately, being January, it means we’ll have to wait eleven months before we can put that to the test.
While it may indicate a possibility of similar behavior, from a strict point of view, I’d have to say no. You don’t review “Joe and the Volcano” to determine if “Saving Private Ryan” is a good movie or not… 8)
My next door nieghbors, who are African-American, celebrate both Christmas and Kwanzaa. Last year, they invited my (white) family over to celebrate it with them. At my church, which is integrated and in a largely African-American neighborhood, we have a ChristKwanzaa wreath instead of a traditional advent wreath. The three traditionally purple candles are red, and stand for the blood of Christ and a symbol of courage, the traditionally pink candle is green and represents life and the Virgin Mary and the traditionally white candle in the center is black and stands for Jesus who lived as one of the people. Sure, it’s made up, but so is the traditional pink-and-purple stuff and the symbolism of this makes more sense to me anyway. I like it. Just my 2 cents.
A-Fricking-men!!!
Kwanzaa is a celebration of Blackness. Cool. Anyone who wants to celebrate Blackness can do so at Kwanzaa.
St. Patrick’s Day is a celebration of Irishness. Cool. Anyone who wants to celebrate Irishness can do so on St. Patrick’s Day.
In many places, Columbus Day is a celebration of Italianicity ;). Cool. Anyone who wants to celebrate Italianicity can do so on Columbus Day.
Etc., etc., etc. What is wrong with the principle of celebrating one’s ethnicity/race/heritage?
The biggest gripe I’m really hearing is that (presumably) white people feel excluded. So what? I’ve gone to several Sabbath dinners. The prayers and the songs were all in Hebrew. I don’t know Hebrew, so I felt “excluded”. Is Sabbath dinner therefore discriminatory? Of course not.
And this whole staring business. Feh. I disagree with Biggirl that this is hypersensitivity. It’s actually rudeness by the individual starers, but that doesn’t have an impact on Kwanzaa itself. Newsflash: There are morons in this world. The fact that a moron was at the Kwanzaa celebration you hypothetically attended doesn’t make the holiday itself racist or bad.
Aboslutely nothing at all… now if certain people cough Biggirl cough would stop denying that it’s all inclusive, when it’s hack rjung hack obviously not, I can shut the hell up.
I guess. I still see it as a basically positive thing, based on how economically disenfranchiesed most black communities are.
I know, I know. “It’s not faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiir!” If you were going to play golf with Tiger Woods, he’d probably offer you a handicap. If you were going to play one-on-one with Michael Jordan, he might offer to spot you several points, and you might have some remote chance of winning if you played to the best of your abilities. I suppose it’s arguable whether or not that’s a more equitable situation than you and Money just going straight up head to head, but in any case you can see where either thing is “fairer” than you having to spot Jordan points, or Bobby having to do twice as many pullups as Greg, or whatever.
(as of last wednesday, I was quit for one whole year. Something else I was Little Richard to Brian’s Pat Boone)
