raindog, I spit on my palms as I clicked in here, does that count? I am not sure that I am “aboard”. When I wrote about superficial reading of scripture I should have been more specific in saying that Christians, rarely think critically about what they’re reading nor have they bothered to research cultural practices.
regards,
widdley
Bolding mine…
Hmmmmm…To be honest that comment is as inane and indefensible as the earlier one. :smack:
Gotta back raindog on this one. It’s a good generalization of some Christians, but not the Episcopalian Mafia of this board, nor several brilliant Catholics of my acquaintance – tomndebb comes immediately to mind, but there are several others, here and elsewhere – and even large numbers of conservative evangelicals whose stance I don’t agree with but must admit that it has been carefully thought through.
For me, cultural practices inform my understanding of Scripture – because every word of it is the human author conveying something important through reference to that which is a custom in his culture, one way or another. God works through the human authors – how, is quite a distinct debate. But that what we know of Him is mediated through cultural customs is plentifully obvious – and therefore knowledge of cultural customs is vital to true knowledge of Him.
On critical reading, there are a bunch of things worth saying – but I think that a lively faith and a good grounding in critical thought are by no means incommensurate, and I’ve seen a wide variety of people employing both in their lives effectively.
raindog, in an earlier post you stated that you required nothing from me. Now, you’ve mocked my words. A critical read of the story of Lot (which you “passed” on) gives no indication of anything more than condemnation of anal rape (reading the Hebrew “yada” as one wishes as a sexual reference). Cultural practices in Paul’s era…pagan ritual temple sex, male prostitution and pederasty. Does that help?
regards,
widdley
Well…No it doesn’t help. Not at all really.
I didn’t mock your words. I took exception to the comment, * “…Christians, rarely think critically about what they’re reading nor have they bothered to research cultural practices…”*
I said they were inane and indefensible.
Instead of responding to that, you went to Lot, Paul and yada, yada, yada. (<---- Now there’s an example of mocking…) (hehe)
So how does that help?
As before, I will “pass” on the merits of the several scrpitures you mentioned. Maybe another time…
Okay, I just want to mark the rest of my participation in this thread as “what Polycarp just said.”
In addition to not being a sinner, I’m also not a biblical scholar in the least. I can only give my interpretation of the Bible as it’s been presented to me. So I have nothing to contribute to a discussion of how Christianity and supporting same sex marriage are compatible, other than actually being a Christian and a homosexual man who wants to get married. Which is, apparently, dismissable as nothing more than “extremely vocal” “rhetoric” with nothing to back it up. Or else it’s at best an insincere attempt to validate my lifestyle, at worst self-loathing complicty in a religion which obviously hates me and wants to destroy me, since “the majority” doesn’t agree with my interpretation.
I can’t contribute any more to the debate than variations on what I’ve already said.
No, raindog. You took exception to the comment regarding Christians failure to think critically about what they’re reading and research cultural practices and then I responded by **explaining ** what I was referring to. Another time? If you’re looking for responses in thesis form, someone to sneer at, I highly doubt there will be “another time”. No matter.
regards,
widdley
:Tugs on fedora. Settles shoulder in trenchcoat.:
Siege, enforcer for the Episcopalian mafia checking in.
I freely admit I do pick and choose from the Bible, and there are parts of it I simply don’t get, including most of Revelation. I’m not a Biblical scholar; just an ordinary Episcopalian trying to make sense of this world in light of what the Bible teaches me and what life has taught me.
One of the things life taught me when I was a teenager was that I was ugly, worthless, useless and, not only was it a waste of time for me to be interested in a fellow, it was downright insulting. Please note that I am female, for those of you who didn’t know. If I understood that if I did show interest in a guy, not only would I be laughed at, so would he. It was ludicrous that I should ever hope to fall in love, marry, or even have sex in any but the most coarse, callous way. I know the damage that did to my soul. I also know what the Bible, specifically the four Gospels taught me back in those days. It taught me that the most important thing is to love God, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself (actually, I tried to love my neighbor a bit better, since I didn’t think much of myself). It taught me that Christ didn’t associate with the respectable, moral types who pronounced opinion on law, confident in their own righteousness, but with the scruffy outcasts like me who had nowhere to belong. It taught me I could be liked and accepted for who I was, that God made me as I was, innumerable flaws and all, and that it was all right. Life and the Bible combined taught me to look beyond surface appearances and see people for who they are, not to condemn them for what society says they are or any one aspect of their personality.
There was a fellow who stood by me through the worst of those days and gave me the friendship I so badly needed. Fifteen years later, he was nervous when he told me he was gay. I like his partner of over ten years almost as much as I do him. Is what he shares with his partner less important and, I will say it, less holy than, say, what Larry King shares with his 6th wife or what Bob Barr shares with his 3rd? Knowing how awful it felt to be told it was ludicrous for me to consider falling in love and that no man would ever be desperate enough to love me, how compatible can telling Sol Grundy it’s immoral for him to want to spend the rest of his life with someone be with Christ’s commandment to love my neighbor as myself? How can I pronounce judgement on him or say the love gobear has for his partner is less moral than what I feel for the man I’ve been seeing for the past several months?
Adultery is condemned specifically and unambigiously throughout the Bible, including in the 10 Commandments. Gossip, malice, slander, greed, and envy are condemned right alongside sexual immorality in Paul’s letters and in the Gospels. I’ve never been harmed by homosexuality, but I’ve seen the damage gossip, malice, and slander have done to me and others. Most recently, they destroyed a good friend’s marriage of nearly 30 years. I’ve yet to see a church take a public stand against gossip, and greed and envy seems to me to be among the foundations of the advertising business, especially now that Christmas is approaching.
I’ve read the Bible, paying particular attention to what Christ is reported to have said and how He is reported to have acted. I am, afterall, a Christian, rather than a Paulian, or even a Jamesian. Reading what I have and knowing what I have, how can I deny to my homosexual brothers and sisters the same dreams I’ve had? How can I inflict upon them the same pain I’ve known?
Respectfully,
CJ
Scruffy Episcopalian
It occurred to me that maybe I should explain that “enforcer” label I stuck on myself half in jest last post. You see, when I was a child, there was a girl in my neighborhood who was physically and probably mentally handicapped. She wore a back and leg braces and had a speech impediment, in addition to being somewhat slow of thought. As a result, she was treated as being even more worthless and unlikable than I was. I’d met her back in kindergarten, and was her friend. I saw how people treated her, yet I knew what she was really like. As a result, I became her defender.
When I was a child and a teenager, I learned firsthand how some people who pride themselves on their respectability treat those who are different. I also learned there’s a lot more to those of us who are different than meets the eye. People dismissed my friend out of hand based on surface appearances while never getting to know the wonderful, kind person below. Objecting when people tell me it’s sinful for gobear to take pleasure in coming home to his partner’s smile is just an outgrowth of what I learned from looking out for my friend all those years ago.
CJ
I can relate to that, Siege, I was considered too ugly for any guy to come near me til I was 23.
I always felt like an outcast, and thats who God loves.
Well, He loves the others too but…
I always used to like other outcasts, and I have had gay friends and I also know love knows no sex(you know what I mean).
I also believe fornication is wrong, so I am for same sex marriage.
By the way, I visited an Episcopalian church this morning and I liked it.
vanilla, groomed Assemblian