ISO9000 Management Review Tomorrow

[Duke_of_Rat]

@Leaffan

Well, obviously you shouldn’t be doing it so you can slap the certificate on the wall. You should be doing it because having control over key processes is the right way to run a business. Of course my view may be a little slanted.

I was being a little facetious. What I really meant was that they just figure they’ll lay all the paperwork off on me (and know I’ll do it) and claim the ISO 9001 certification. It’s no matter to them how much extra work I have to do, the bottom line is, they’ll have the certification and I’ll have the work.

We already have a QC system in house (ASME) and that’s enough for one person (on top of all the other hats I wear). I cringe when I think about having to take on an entirely new system on top of and parallel to the existing one.

I’ve been doing this for a long time, the owners of the company for just a couple of years. They don’t really understand all the paperwork involved right now, just like they don’t know anything about ISO 9001 other than customers keep inquiring about it. If they decide to take on ISO, that will be a good time to bring it up I guess.

[RickJay]

@ralph124c

Ask the auditing team one question : “Where did YOU get your ISO-9000 certification from”?

They’ll laugh at you, since there’s no such thing as “ISO 9000 certification”. It’s ISO 9001 that you can be certified to.

Oh, and such organizations are audited to IEC Guide 62, which in some ways is a much, much harder standard. ISO registrars are really heavily audited.

@Duke of Rat

Our company wants to become ISO 9001 (I think that’s the one) compliant. I’ve tried to talk them out of it, they have no idea of the amount of paperwork involved. They just want to slap the “ISO Certified” symbol on their letterhead without regard for the poor schlubs who have to, you know, comply. I already have the honor of doing the documentation for a different QC system, and that’s not really part of my job description, I just do it because it’s too much paperwork for anybody else to bother with. And now they want to take on ISO paperwork.

So just adopt most of the existing QC system to meet the ISO 9001 requirements. Why would you create a whole second quality system?

[Count_Blucher]

Post in spoiler as it is a hijack & adds nothing to the discussion:

Q: Which ISO scraps the Board of Directors if they aren’t up to spec?

Yup, didn’t think so…

[Duke_of_Rat]

@RickJay

So just adopt most of the existing QC system to meet the ISO 9001 requirements. Why would you create a whole second quality system?

I’m not that familiar with ISO 9001 implentation, if they would recognize an ASME QC system as meeting their specs, that’d be better. Still sounds like I’ll have “ISO Paperwork” pile and “ASME Paperwork” pile. We’re not a mega corp with teams of paperwork techs to chase all this stuff down, what I’m afraid will happen is I’ll get buried under paper and not be able to implement both properly and still do my “real” job.

If they hire somebody else to handle the paperwork, then I’m all for it. I’ll even still do the ASME paperwork, I just don’t want the hassle of doing any more paperwork.

[RickJay]

@Duke of Rat

I’m not that familiar with ISO 9001 implentation, if they would recognize an ASME QC system as meeting their specs, that’d be better.

That’s up to you. There’s no one “they.” ISO doesn’t do audits; registrars do audits. ISO 9001 doesn’t have anything to do with the specifications of the product; it’s up to you to determine what the customer/market/law wants and base your procedures and specifications on that.

If you aren’t already doing about 85% of what ISO 9001:2000 requires, your business is completely screwed, and the 15% you’re not doing will help you if you do do it. If a consultant comes in and tells you you need a quality manual that’s as thick as a dictionary, they’re lying and trying to rip you off. It’s all common sense stuff.

Heck, send me a private E-mail and I’ll recommend some resources for you.

(I wonder if Leaffan is a former colleague of mine…)

Still sounds like I’ll have “ISO Paperwork” pile and “ASME Paperwork” pile.

No, not if you do it right. If ASME is what you need to conform to to control the quality of your work, ASME paperwork is, by definition, what you need.

ISO 9001 isn’t really that big a deal. It used to be, but the new version of the standard is pretty reasonable and is much friendlier to non-manufacturers. To be honest, any decent company - even a small one - should be doing most of what it asks for.

In my experience, the most common trouble companies have is they don’t realize how much ISO 9001 lets them decide how to manage quality. They assume they must have, say, a procedure for purchasing. Nope; there’s no requirement for that. Go ahead, look it up. They figure, well, ISO 9001 means I have to do SPC. Nope, no such requirement; that would make sense in some companies, but not in others. They assume they have to organize their quality manuals the same way the standard’s organized. Nope; as a matter of fact we advise you NOT do that. They assume they need to do site audits of their suppliers. No such requirement. But what they don’t do is set their own goals, determine their own improvement plans, get creative in coming up with corrective actions. THAT’S the important shit.

Sure, there’s a few things it adds. You have to do audits on yourself, so that’s some more work, but it’s a pretty good thing to do anyway. You have to do management reviews, but surely you have management meetings now, right? Just take notes of those meetings and make sure they include some mention of all the basics the standard calls for (and it’s all logical stuff.) You have to have a procedure for nonconforming service and product but brother, if you don’t take care of pissed off customers and busted products now, you’ll be out of business by next Tuesday. You have to have quality objectives, but any decent company already has objectives or KPIs or a balanced scorecard of some sort. You have to have a document control procedure, but if you’re an engineering firm I sure hope you already know how to control drawings and instructions and stuff like that.

[Pixiesnix]

All I could think upon reading the thread title was, “Wow, Leaffan is living an MST3K joke.”

So that’s they were talking about!

[Duke_of_Rat]

@RickJay

That’s up to you. There’s no one “they.” ISO doesn’t do audits; registrars do audits. ISO 9001 doesn’t have anything to do with the specifications of the product; it’s up to you to determine what the customer/market/law wants and base your procedures and specifications on that.

If you aren’t already doing about 85% of what ISO 9001:2000 requires, your business is completely screwed, and the 15% you’re not doing will help you if you do do it. If a consultant comes in and tells you you need a quality manual that’s as thick as a dictionary, they’re lying and trying to rip you off. It’s all common sense stuff.

Heck, send me a private E-mail and I’ll recommend some resources for you.

(I wonder if Leaffan is a former colleague of mine…)
No, not if you do it right. If ASME is what you need to conform to to control the quality of your work, ASME paperwork is, by definition, what you need.

ISO 9001 isn’t really that big a deal. It used to be, but the new version of the standard is pretty reasonable and is much friendlier to non-manufacturers. To be honest, any decent company - even a small one - should be doing most of what it asks for.

In my experience, the most common trouble companies have is they don’t realize how much ISO 9001 lets them decide how to manage quality. They assume they must have, say, a procedure for purchasing. Nope; there’s no requirement for that. Go ahead, look it up. They figure, well, ISO 9001 means I have to do SPC. Nope, no such requirement; that would make sense in some companies, but not in others. They assume they have to organize their quality manuals the same way the standard’s organized. Nope; as a matter of fact we advise you NOT do that. They assume they need to do site audits of their suppliers. No such requirement. But what they don’t do is set their own goals, determine their own improvement plans, get creative in coming up with corrective actions. THAT’S the important shit.

Sure, there’s a few things it adds. You have to do audits on yourself, so that’s some more work, but it’s a pretty good thing to do anyway. You have to do management reviews, but surely you have management meetings now, right? Just take notes of those meetings and make sure they include some mention of all the basics the standard calls for (and it’s all logical stuff.) You have to have a procedure for nonconforming service and product but brother, if you don’t take care of pissed off customers and busted products now, you’ll be out of business by next Tuesday. You have to have quality objectives, but any decent company already has objectives or KPIs or a balanced scorecard of some sort. You have to have a document control procedure, but if you’re an engineering firm I sure hope you already know how to control drawings and instructions and stuff like that.

We already have a QC manual that’s thick as a…well, not a dictionary, but it’s substantial.

It has set procedures for everything from purchasing, drawing control, document control, material control, manufacturing control, inspection, testing, calibration, you name it. ASME leaves very few stones unturned.

None of this is elective, the procedure must be followed for every job and it is audited by an outside agency for every job.

Additionally, some customers conduct their own inspections, either by their in-house inspection team or a third party inspection company.

We have additional documented hold/checkpoints above and beyond what ASME calls for on every job. Also, the customer specs often call for more documentation than is required by ASME. We (I) have lots of paperwork.
Thing is, our product isn’t deficient, our customer service isn’t deficient, the higher ups seem to be satisfied with the bottom line (of course if having ISO certification would increase business they’d be happier I’m sure). Sounds like to me we already surpass what ISO requires and customers just want to see ISO to give them a warm fuzzy without fully understanding what already goes into the product.

I guess there’s no use worrying about it, if they decide to implement ISO then that’s that and I’ll either do it or they can get somebody else to.

Sorry for hijacking Leaffan’s post with my petty bitching, I just don’t want any more paperwork.

[Leaffan]

@Duke of Rat

We already have a QC manual that’s thick as a…well, not a dictionary, but it’s substantial.

It has set procedures for everything from purchasing, drawing control, document control, material control, manufacturing control, inspection, testing, calibration, you name it. ASME leaves very few stones unturned.

None of this is elective, the procedure must be followed for every job and it is audited by an outside agency for every job.

Additionally, some customers conduct their own inspections, either by their in-house inspection team or a third party inspection company.

We have additional documented hold/checkpoints above and beyond what ASME calls for on every job. Also, the customer specs often call for more documentation than is required by ASME. We (I) have lots of paperwork.
Thing is, our product isn’t deficient, our customer service isn’t deficient, the higher ups seem to be satisfied with the bottom line (of course if having ISO certification would increase business they’d be happier I’m sure). Sounds like to me we already surpass what ISO requires and customers just want to see ISO to give them a warm fuzzy without fully understanding what already goes into the product.

I guess there’s no use worrying about it, if they decide to implement ISO then that’s that and I’ll either do it or they can get somebody else to.

Sorry for hijacking Leaffan’s post with my petty bitching, I just don’t want any more paperwork.

Yes, it sure sounds like you’re ISO-ready at this point.

I’d ask some of your more intimate customers who are ISO certified to help you by coming in for a day and conducting an ISO audit and providing a report.

If all goes well, call the registrar and just go for it. They’re pretty lenient as long as there are no gaping holes. Your customers can help you with this.

RickJay - have you worked in Ottawa/Kanata?