You would, huh? Silly me! I was under the impression that Israel was a sovereign nation, free from the control of any other entity. Apparently I was wrong. Seems that you, justinh, are in complete control.
I would justify it by saying “we gave it to them so now we have taken it back”.
and it dangerous for them to have it. ie. pakistan, iraq,lybia,…
of course you can’t ask for them back, you have to wipe them out. ie. pakistan,iraq,lybia…
we never should allowed them to have it but thats a different thread.
or do you trust them enough to turn it over for next year’s aid?
What the hell are you babbling about, crazy man?
The US most certainly did not give or sell any nuclear weapons to India, Israel, or Pakistan and we’ve tried very hard to ensure that the Iraqis do not come to have such things at all. We did not allow anyone to have nuclear weapons. That is beyond the control of the US.
Perhaps the Israelis should take all nuclear weapons away from the US. After all, we are the only ones in the world who have ever been irresponsible enough to use them in war. How would you react to such a scenario, justinh? If some other nation decided to take weapons from the US, you’d probably consider it an act of war, wouldn’t you?
In any event, I don’t think Alessan was necessarily referring to the use of nuclear weapons. It’s pretty clear that the Israelis could kick the crap out of just about anyone they want to using only conventional weapons. That’s why the Palestinians resort to terrorist tactics rather than direct confrontation.
Exactly how did we “allow” Israel to have nuclear weapons? And exactly when did we “give it to them”?
Other countries are perfectly capable of developing nuclear weapons on their own, though I wouldn’t be surprized if there was espionage involved. They also have some of the best weaponry and battle-hardened troops.
Israel welcomes US aid, but they would be a formitable force regardless. If you think you could easily wipe out the Israeli nuclear force you are sorely mistaken. They would never surrender anything they felt would jeapordize the existance of Israel, aid or no aid.
Oh, so the U.S. did not give the nuclear bomb to Israel, they merely lent it to them…
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In answer to the original question: Israel has very little to do with Bib-Laden’s hatred of the United States. His goal is to recreate the Caliphate, to have a unified Islamic control over all of what was once the Islamic empire at its peak. The US embodies percieved Western imposition of its values on the Arab peoples and is thus the biggest obstacle to achieving that goal. US soldiers in Saudi Arabia is a much bigger affront than the “petty state of Israel.” Jerusulam has NEVER been very important to Islam. When the Christian Crusades took it, there was little unified Islamic response. When Mecca and Medinah were threatened … hoohah. Like any demonizing demogogue, he appeals to the desperately poor across Arab lands with simplistic messages. The rich tapestry of Islam has many threads, he finds the dark ones and pulls hard.
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Is a proper response to terrorism givng terrorists what they want? Only if you want to encourage more terrorism from any group with a gripe about you or your policies.
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As to the morality of the state of Israel:
There has been a Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. This despite being driven out, systematically murdered, tortured, and forcibly converted by Muslims and Christians alike. Do you need detailing of the individual atrocities? It would take volumes. True, by the time the second crusades were finished there were only a few Jews left there alive, but Jewish hearts remained there always. Physical return to Zion began before British control, during the late 1800s under Ottoman rule. Ottoman oppression of the growing Jewish presence was only somewhat abated by US intervention (Henry Morgenthau, Sr. US ambassador). So don’t blame the conflict solely on the Brits ineptitude.
Jerusulam is the ONLY holy Jewish city; Israel is the only Jewish state. Jews across the world always have prayed facing Jerusualum; Muslims in Jerusulum still face Mecca. The Dome on the Rock was built, intentionally, by destroying The Temple and buliding a mosque upon it. (This has been Islamic tradition from the beginning, destroy the holiest site of the native population and place a mosque on it.)Under Israeli rule Moslems have had unfettered acsess to this mosque. Did Jews have acsess to holy sites when they were under Arab control? Here is a hint: visit the Jewish quarter - no old buildings survived Arab rule. Oh, and by the way, the Ka’bah in Mecca, is built around a stone that is believed to have been given to Abraham by an Angel; it was a holy site for thousands of years before Mohammed was born. Can any non-Muslim have acsess to this ancient relic? Could a Jew visit this site or claim that Mecca is a Jewish holy city too? How many countries are Islamic?
Don’t give me that Jeruslulam is holy to Islam too crap. It doesn’t compare.
We Jews may be a bit paranoid at this point, but that doesn’t change the fact the world HAS been out to destroy us for thousands of years (and doing a damn good job of it too). Arab nations have been pledged for years to make the desert run with Jewish blood, to eliminate the state of Israel. The equivialent of the WTC and Pentagon attacks happen in Israel every year. But Israel is expected to “show restraint.” Are Israelis perfect? Of course not. Are they the good guys? They sure are to me.
ok, (whew a lot of stuff going on here)
do we agree on these 2 points?
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If Israel felt it would be overrun then it would use the nuclear arsenal to avert it or kill everyone it could.
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if we stopped giving $3 billion aid to israel , they would be overrun by their hostile neighbors.
so if we plan on stopping the aid then we will also have to take back or destroy the nuclear arsenal. since they would not give them up and we couldnt trust them to sell all of them to use, we would have to destroy them covertly. that would not fly politically unless the public is convinced that Israel is not an ally but just a drain of $3 billions anually.
SO the point is:
we are stuck pumping aid and getting in the middle of the conflict between the arabs and the Jews. I haven’t seen anything in this thread to repute this. we dont do it because we are kind or sympathetic or this country is run by Jews or we need an ally. we are simply hostages of the situation. so stop bitching about it.
justinh,
I agree with point 1, Israel would probably use nuclear weapons if they felt the existance of Israel was in jeapordy.
I strongly disagree with point 2. There is nothing to suggest that the Arab states could destroy Israel, with or without US aid. Israel is a very tough nut to crack. They’ve worked with South Africa when SA was a pariah nation, they have always been very resourceful about getting the arms they need.
You seem to have this idea that we support Israel for no legitmate reasons. Many people have presented you with perfectly valid reasons (you don’t have to agree with all of them, but most people recognize them) for our continued support of Israel.
Your policy seems to be it’s OK to support people until there is some trouble, then drop them. There are lots of problems with that kind of foreign policy, let alone with this particular instance of it.
justinh,
No, we can’t agree on that.
Of course, the threat exists.
Still:
Israel would be difficult to overrun with or without US support. Back agaist the wall, Israelis would be very formidable fighters. Back against the wall, world Jewery would support Israel in the face of impending doom.
The threat of such catstrophic retailiation would LIKELY deter such an action by Israel’s enemies. Presuming that Israel has developed the bomb. (They may just have created the illusion that they have … for deterence sake the perception is as good as the reality.)
Israelis would be unlikely to pull the trigger even if put in that situation. But no one knows that for sure.
The situation is less unstable because of US support. That much we’d agree on. And the US has its own interests served by keeping the Mid East as stable as possible. A weak Israel that tempts attack and results in another major multinational Arab-Israeli conflict would be against US interests. No matter how strong Israel is, they are unlikely to do more than defend themselves. So we (the US) are hostage to trying to achieve a minimizing of hostilities if not peace, and thus are well served by funding Israel.
To give you an idea of the vitriol by which Israel is supported, take me for instance.
I am a happily married medical and graduate student. Right now, the government is paying me to get a medical and graduate education. I would like to think that I will be of some service to the world after this training as a physician scientist. I am a professed agnostic who was raised Jewish. I am a moderate Democrat with very liberal social views and moderately conservative economic views. Though I wasn’t born in the USA, I have been here since the age of two (I was born in South Africa).
I have been to Israel 6 or 7 times. My closest relatives there are a maternal and paternal uncle, a few cousins, and a great uncle.
If war was declared tomorrow, and Israel was in serious jeopardy, I would not hesitate to enlist in the Israeli Army. I would donate every cent I have to the Israeli cause. I would prefer, of course, to serve as a medic or doctor, but for Israel I would serve as cannon fodder. It goes without saying that I would do the same for America if I felt America was in dire straits, but I do believe that America and Israel are in far different circumstances and that Israel could very easily be threatened to its core tomorrow.
I know what happened to the Jews in World War II. I would gladly give my life to see that not happen again. There are few things I hold with such conviction.
justinh:
I will reask the questions that have been asked to you many times already in this thread:
Why, if Israel is one of our closest allies in the world, would we turn our backs on them? What could we possibly benefit from this except a savings that amounts to $12 per US resident per year? Do you realize how much information the US gets from Mossad sources every year? Do you realize how much anger Israel deflects away from the United States? Do you realize how much “dirty work” the US has allegedly had Israel do? Is a Palestine occupying the land which is now Israel, run by Arafat but really the Jihad Islami and Hamas, really something that is preferable to us than a stable, democratic state of Israel?
As almost everyone has pointed out, turning our backs on Israel wouldn’t make bin Laden or anyone else our friend. It wouldn’t make fundamentalist Muslims all chummy to us. The world would be the same, except you’d have $12 in your pocket and the blood of 5 million dead friends on your hands.
I would just like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread for the education I have received because of it.
Thanks!
Stoid