You do recognize, don’t you, that your suggested solution endangers the innocent for many years to come?
Regards,
Shodan
With the end goal being the cessation of such threats. If Israel does what it continually does, then there will always be conflict. My plan predicts that in the short term but ends it in the long term with a more integrated and peaceful Palestine. But of course, there are people who are vested in Israel getting to do whatever the hell it wants now so they ignore that part of the plan. Its almost like they don’t care how many Palestinians are killed, they just want enough of them to die so that they’ll stop being terrorists (yeah, good luck with that) so that Israel never has to give anything up
For true peace to be achieved, there must be a long term solution where Israel is willing to give up parts of itself. All of the plans proposed thus far are not long enough, and Israel is never willing to hold its military back for a generation of two while the older, more radical members of Palestine die off
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Discussions can take a long time. Especially when one side’s (Hamas) main objective is to destroy Israel. The rockets are being launched NOW. The rockets are landing in Israel NOW. Israel is defending it’s children from the bloodthirsty Hamas attacks NOW.
Israel’s raids into Gaza are intended to stop the current vengeance weapon and tunnel attacks from Gaza.
Hamas’s short and long term plan is to destroy Israel.
Israel’s short and long term plan is to survive until tomorrow.
The bottom line is that Israel is defending itself from terrorist attack.
Funny how Palestinian casualties are something to be avoided, while Israeli casualties are just something to put up with.
And if they don’t Hamas fires rockets at them and builds tunnels to invade and bomb them.
Israel has already done this. Hamas and the other terrorist refused the offer.
You make it sound like the reason there is no peace is that Israel is always responding to Hamas attacks. And that the responsiblity lies entirely with Israel to stop responding, instead of Hamas to stop attacking.
Israel has put up with thousands of rockets being fired at them. And nobody seems to want to put any pressure on anyone - until Israel decides to try to put a stop to the rockets. And then it is all her fault.
Israel is supposed to do nothing about the rockets and the tunnels. Instaed, they are supposed to give the Palestinians aid. So they do. In return, they get more rockets - and blame.
Regards,
Shodan
It sounds to me like you’re saying anything Israel does, as long as it addresses the current problem, is ok. Leave the future issues to your kids because we must stop them NOW!
So what, if any, would be your beef if Israel just moves its entire army in and kills everyone in Gaza? That’s addressing the short term problem too, isn’t it? If you’re unwilling to go that far, maybe you’ll get why many people think that the tactics employed isn’t going to solve Israel’s long term issues.
Besides, saying Israel plans to survive until tomorrow is about as silly as saying Hamas has the power to make it happen. No matter what happens Israel will survive to tomorrow. The difference is, does it want that tomorrow to come with the angry relatives and friends of a dozen dead Palestinians or does it want to find a different solution?
To avoid both, long term solutions must be sought. Israel, however, is the more powerful party, and has control of its own destiny. Therefore it can act unilaterally to end the conflict for both sides. Palestinians cannot because they have no power. Hamas is the terrorist, and presumably, not amenable to suggestions of peace
Israel should stop pretending Hamas and the Palestinians are the same people.
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When rockets and tunnel rats are killing your family and friends, the 1st thing you do is stop the rockets and tunnel rats. The long term solutions come later.
Unless one of the parties, Hamas, refuses to accept Israel’s right to exist. That makes any long term solution almost impossible to achieve.
If Hamas had the weapons, or the weapon, to end the existence of Israel, they would have already used it. If Hamas obtains such weapons in the future, they will use it.
What you are arguing for is to avoid Palestinian casualties in the short run, Israel must accept Israeili casualties in the short run. And there is no reason to believe AFAICT that Israel simply absorbing the attacks will make future attacks less likely. Just the opposite, in fact - if Israel does nothing about the tunnels, Hamas has that much more ability to attack. If Israel lifts the embargo, Hamas has more ability to smuggle in more and better rockets.
No, in the short term Israel can only end the conflict on their side. The Palestinians had control of their destiny once, when Israel gave them some Israeli land so they could set up their own country. Then they had elections, once, and the Palestinians elected Hamas, who promised to try to drive all the Jews into the sea and steal their territory.
So I suppose it makes sense to say that the Palestinians don’t have control of their country’s destiny now - the elections have been “postponed” by Hamas - but the PA did have control once, and they chose Hamas. And Hamas did what they said they would, and here we are.
And as usual, it is Israel’s fault for letting the Palestinians elect a group dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
As has been pointed out, this amounts to the suggestion that Israel bears all the responsibility for the situation, and ignoring that all the attacks are coming from Hamas. And that Israel should just sit still and do nothing about those attacks, because that might kill Palestinian civilians. Even though doing nothing kills Israeli civilians.
Israel doesn’t pretend that. They are trying to strike at military - that is, Hamas - targets. Hamas is the one using human shields, and thus putting Palestinian civilians at risk, as they have been doing for Israeli civilians, and are likely to do for the foreseeable future.
And it’s Israel’s responsibility to sit still and take it. Because they were attacked, and because we can’t expect the Palestinians to act like civilized people.
Regards,
Shodan
Yet for all practical purposes they are. Hamas didn’t get where they are by subverting the Palestinians’ will and forcing themselves upon them. They were embraced by the majority. If and when the Palestinians are willing and able to do away with Hamas, they may be able to achieve something positive.
Hamas used to do nice things for folks, like being sure that the trash was picked up when government failed to do so. Perhaps that is how they got folks to like them.
Again, you can be seen as advocating for the eradication of everyone in Gaza because that will surely solve the immediate problem. If you’re not willing to go that far, then admit that not all solution that protect Israel in the immediate period is a good solution
I don’t agree that Hamas is one of the parties. Fatah has always been about coexisting with Israel. Work with them to eliminate Hamas. What Israel does now doesn’t help them in the future, nor does it help Fatah in the present. Israel knows it must have a capable, legitimate partner in Palestine. Overreacting to every Hamas attack isn’t going to establish that
Lets flip that around. Will Israel killing scores more Palestinians, many of the innocents caught in the crossfire, lead to less Israeli casualties in the long run? Does Israel think that if they bomb just one more apartment, bulldoze just one more house, fire just one more missile, that in 20 or 30 years, things will be better? Do you?
The mistake was made all around, from the voters to those in the Bush administration who pushed for the election. However, just like I said to doorhinge above, do you think the solution is to create more martyrs, more families who hate Israel, or can you look beyond that and plan for a better alternative down the line?
Your problem is conflating responsibility with power. This is how I see it:
Power - Israel has most of it, Hamas has some of it, and Fatah has little
Responsibility - Hamas has most of it, Israel has some of it, and Fatah has little
Your keep trying to pin this on the Palestinians to change, referring to either the terrorists who aren’t going to do anything to change, or the powerless political party that opposes them. Then you pretend that both are the same and have equal power. If Fatah had the power, they wouldn’t be shooting rockets at Israel, but they are in no position to stop them. And again, Hamas isn’t going to listen to your suggestions.
So you can either sit back and place blame on an ineffective party, or cry about terrorists, or you can take the 3rd party in this, Israel, and suggest ways in which they can reduce the violence. You know the definition of insanity right? Its doing the same thing over and over while hoping for a different outcome? How’s that working for Israel? Have they gotten peace? Have they received recognition? Are they safe?
So yeah, I suggest ways that Israel needs to change. Its not because they have the sole responsibility, its because they are the only ones who can do anything. You know why I don’t suggest ways where Japan or Brazil or Martians can stop the conflict? Because they don’t matter, they have neither the power nor the responsibility. Israel does have both in spades. So if they want the rockets to stop, they have to do something different.
For a country that doesn’t pretend that Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians are the same, they sure treat them the same.
Again you call them all the “Palestinians” as if you don’t know or don’t believe that Hamas and the innocents are different groups. You should instead say that we can never expect Hamas to act like civilized people, but we can expect the other Palestinians to do so. However, they won’t if they think Israel is indiscriminately targeting them in their quest to get rid of Hamas too
Israel absorbs literally thousands of rockets for years, and then when they don’t, it’s an “overreaction”.
Yes, it is up to the Palestinians to change. They are the ones attacking Israel, so they need to change and stop attacking Israel. They are the ones voting for people who promise to destroy Israel, so they need to vote for someone else instead. They are the ones refusing to negotiate, so they need to start negotiating.
No, as I pointed out, Israel doesn’t do that. They are trying to treat civilians and Hamas differently, but Hamas is using the Palestinians as human shields to frustrate that, and to ensure that more Palestinian civilians are killed. And then blame that on Israel.
Then I will expect the other Palestinians not to vote for Hamas, and, if they do vote for Hamas, and Hamas does what it can to put Palestinians in harm’s way, to not blame it on Israel but to think rationally about it.
[ul][li]Israel cedes land to the PA and they have their own elections.[/li][li]One of the parties runs on a platform that they want to kill all the Israelis and grab the rest of their land too. [/li][li]That party is elected.[/li][li]Said party begins firing rockets at Israel and building tunnels to use in acts of terrorism.[/li][li]Israel puts up with this for a year or two.[/li][li]Three Israeli teenagers are kidnapped and murdered. [/li][li]It is documented that Hamas financed and equipped the murderers, and a political chief of Hamas congratulates the murderers for what they have done. [/li][li]Israel then cracks down on terrorism in Gaza. [/li][li]Hamas continues to fire rockets at Israel, and places the launchers in schools and hospitals so as to maximize the chances that Palestinian civilians will be killed.[/li][li]Therefore, this is all Israel’s fault and they are the ones who need to change.[/ul][/li]:shrugs:
Regards,
Shodan
I dunno, I would have handed out medals to anyone boot stomping Nazis dead.
It’s not Israel’s fault that Hamas wants to destroy them. They would be perfectly happy if Hamas beat their sword into plowshares and went about their business.
The people responsible for deaths in Gaza are Hamas and I use the term “people” loosely. They know what they’re doing is an act of war and they deliberately operate in and around hospitals and schools knowing they will be destroyed. They could have used their supply of cement to build something wonderful and joyous but instead they built hundreds of tunnels.
And despite Hama’s intent to destroy Israel they are warned ahead of time when rockets are launched. This is an unprecedented attempt to reduce casualties.
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You can be seen as advocating for the eradication of everyone in Hamas.
Ending the vengeance weapon launches from Gaza will help Israel in the short and long run.
Overreacting? Israel has a right to defend itself. Even you advocate for the eradication of everyone in Hamas.
You’re both missing the point. Self-defense is not an overreaction. Overreaction is killing a hundred people indiscriminately while trying to get to 10 people. My view isn’t that Israel is overreacting by simply defending itself. I’ll say it again: Israel has a right to defend itself from attacks. But what Israel does not or should not do is kill a lot of innocent people to get at a few guilty people.
Hopefully you two won’t make that mistake again.
Here’s what Israel SHOULD do, I think:
- Target only the terrorists
- Not target the civilians (throwing rocks does not make you a terrorist). In fact, no active and armed Israeli soldier should ever fire on anyone throwing rocks at them, ever, for any reason, unless his life is threatened. Hell, even if its a particularly big or sharp rock that may cause some injury, he should not shoot back unless its life-threatening
- If Hamas uses human shields, then let them go. Find some other way to get Hamas
- If Hamas hides its weapons amongst the innocent, then let the weapons go, find some other way
- If Hamas travels with women and children, then let them go, find some other way
Israel can absorb thousands of rockets for years. Those have terrible aim and low accuracy. If they get bombed, they should hold back. Only fight Hamas using the tactics above. Or things will stay the way they are or get worse
Again, you conflate “Palestinian” with Hamas. There are those in Fatah who are not terrorists and have never raised a gun towards Israel. They are weak, feeble, and near powerless. They do not have the power to change. Therefore, telling them to change, telling them to stop attacking Israel, means nothing. Its a joke. They aren’t attacking Israel in the first place. You might as well ask them when they stopped beating their wives. I don’t think you’ll ever grow out of your unrealistic demand that the Palestinians do something until you divest yourself from that belief
You consider Israel the good guys here right? And probably smarter and more capable? So why do you think its fine if Israel keeps falling for that obvious plan over and over again? You know what will happen: Hamas will put their civilians in danger, Israel will accidentally kill some of them, and much of the world will blame Israel. That sounds stupid if Israel keeps falling for that. Especially since they KNOW that’s Hamas’ plan. Are they stupid? Or remorseless killers? Why do you think Israel can’t come up with a better plan?
Let’s take your timeline as the truth. So what’s Israel supposed to do now? They are getting blamed by a lot of people. I’m assuming they don’t like that. So what can they do to change so that it doesn’t happen in the future?
Well since they’re a terrorist organization, I’m fine with that. What I’m not fine with is if innocent Palestinians get killed in the meantime. If Hamas is putting them in danger, then Israel has to do their best to keep them out of danger
Not if Israel creates a dozen terrorists for every one it kills.
That would be an overreaction. How about targeting 10 people, and killing them and 10 people they are hiding amongst? Is that “overreaction”?
The militant to civilian ratio of Israeli operations in Gaza is about 1:1. Which is a lot better than US or NATO military have done, in much easier circumstances, for example.
No. Israeli government and armed forces are under an iron-clad obligation to protect Israeli civilians. Allowing Israeli civilians to get hurt in order to appease you or “much of the world” is not an option. Do you understand that?
I agree.
I’m waiting for you to reveal said “other ways” that would be effective in the current situation. Israel would no doubt love to know what these “other ways” are – if they exist.
If you can’t tell us HOW to accomplish the necessary goals in a way that fits your criteria, then you’re just spouting a wish list. As the saying goes, if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.
Sounds like it basically boils down to ‘don’t attack Hamas’, de facto.
Given that Hamas is unlikely to voluntarily arrange matters so that it is possible to attack its fighers or operations, under the proposed rules.
Can’t agree. That rewards the war-crime and makes it more likely it will be repeated, and copied by others.
It’s too much like giving ransom money to kidnappers: it only guarantees more kidnappings.
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I didn’t make a mistake.
Your wish list sounds wonderful. However, Hamas must stop launching their vengeance weapons into Israel ASAP. Either Hamas can chose to stop launching rockets or Israel will stop Hamas from launching rockets. Israel is going to defend its children. Hamas can chose to use children as miners or human shields but that’s the choice of the terrorist Hamas.
Letting the launch sites, launchers, storage sites, and terrorist leadership go will not make Israel safer. It will only encourage the terrorists to use more women and children as human shields. Your wish list will result in more Israelis deaths.