Would you feel ok with it if the roles were reversed and an Arabic country at war with Israel killed 10 innocent people while targeting 10 IDF members?
Cite?
Does creating resentment by killing innocent people help Israel protect its civilians, when the survivors become terrorists and other Arabic countries refuse to recognize or aid Israel?
Are you saying that its up to me to craft a response for the Israeli military and that if I don’t personally do it, then its all my fault? Do I have your guarantee that Israel will implement my strategy for sure if I make it? Cause I’ll do it if you can make them listen to me
Sounds like it if the situation doesn’t change. Luckily Israel has the power to change the situation
So basically, kill both Hamas and the human shield, allow the family and friends of the shield to blame Israel (which they will), and create more terrorists. That’s the better outcome? What plans do you have to reduce terrorism? Kill more Palestinians?
If only. Any Arabic country at war with Israel would be willing to kill 10000 “innocent people” in Israel even without targeting 10 IDF members. Thank God they are either too afraid or not capable of doing it.
Cite for what? 1:1 ratio in Israel vs Gaza conflicts or greater-than-1:1 ratio in US-NATO conflicts? I gave both cites, numerous times, in numerous threads. Before I give it here again - will that change your mind at all? Because if it won’t, I won’t bother.
Well, you’re the one saying they should do this and do that, without saying how it’s possible to do those things in the context of stopping the rocket barrage. Methinks you’re trying to bell the cat.
As some Israeli fellow said, "Hamas uses their citizens to protect their weapons. Israel uses weapons to protect their citizens.
[QUOTE=YogSosoth;17639550
Does creating resentment by killing innocent people help Israel protect its civilians, when the survivors become terrorists and other Arabic countries refuse to recognize or aid Israel?
[/QUOTE]
A good point, but one cannot let one’s people die, although killing the enemy and their shields makes more enemies.
So basically, you’re saying its fine if Hamas kills innocent Israeli’s when their goal is killing IDF members?
Cite for “The militant to civilian ratio of Israeli operations in Gaza is about 1:1”. I’m assuming you mean that Israel kills 1 militant for every civilian they accidentally kill. With 2000 dead in Gaza over the past few weeks, I doubt that a thousand Hamas died amongst that number
And I’ll gladly change my mind if you cite credible, reliable, and comprehensive sources
Does Israel have to oblige them? Do you think any attack on Palestinians is ok as long as Israel goes in with the goal of protecting their own? After all, wiping out everyone in Gaza would be pretty effective, would you support them doing that?
I can give you a cite (in fact, have given it in these threads, numerous times), about the previous Gaza operation, in 2009, where out of 1100 or so Palestinian fatalities Hamas swore up and down that only 50 were militants. IDF at the time identified 709 as militants. A year later, Hamas minister confirmed that 700 of the dead were Hamas militants. So IDF numbers are pretty accurate. Would a cite for that satisfy you?
Judging by how IDF numbers turn out the most accurate of all reporting agencies, in the current operation IDF so far estimates that 1000 or so dead are militants. Would a cite for that satisfy you? In the final analysis that IDF usually releases after such operations, the number will probably higher.
It will if it meets the criteria above. Sadly, it probably won’t. Your type of cites would probably be from Fox News, some blog (rather than a news site, or editorial), a very limited study that you are clearly taking things out of context, or something with other problems. Here’s a challenge for you, cite it from the dailykos, or Maddow’s blog, then maybe I’ll take it seriously
Of the 1,166 names of Palestinian dead gathered by the IDF’s Research Department, 709 have been identified as “Hamas terror operatives,” the IDF said, adding that the terrorists hailed from a variety of organizations.
Furthermore, on the second day of the war, Israel targeted police headquarters and 250 martyrs fell and they were affiliated to Hamas and other factions. In addition, about 200-300 members of Al-Qassam Brigades died martyrs as well as 150 security officers; the rest of the victims were civilians
So as we see, IDF figures are the most accurate ones.
What does IDF report on the current Gaza war?
A senior Israeli official said on Tuesday that 1,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed by the IDF since the start of “Operation Protective Edge” 22 days ago, Israel’s Channel 2 reported.
Why are you using the 2009 Gaza War instead of the most recent one?
You couldn’t find a non-Israeli governmental source for those numbers? :dubious: Taking an aggregate of the sources cited in wiki, the IDF, not surprisingly, has the least estimated death toll and by far the least estimated civilian casualties. Here’s the breakdown:
Total killed:
Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) - 1417
B’Tselem (an Israeli non-profit human rights organization) - 1391
IDF - 1166
Militants and police:
PCHR - 491 approx.
B’Tselem - 600 approx.
IDF - 709
Hamas - 600 to 700
Civilians:
PCHR - 926
B’Tselem - 759
IDF - 295
Not surprisingly, you didn’t mention anything about the injured. The PCHR estimates 5303. I ask the question once again: Do you or anyone else thing that these 5303 people are going to simply forgive the Israeli’s for this? Sure, some of them might blame Hamas, but how many do you think will blame Israel solely or partly for their injuries? Add to that an estimated 50800 displaced from their homes, just exactly what does Israel expect to happen when all of the kids in these numbers become old enough to throw rocks or shoot guns or fire rockets? For the 295 civilians that the IDF estimated they killed, they probably created at least twice that many future terrorists. Was it worth it? And this was in 2009! Did it solve anything in 2014? Do you think rockets will stop falling in 2017, or 2021, or 2025?
Its not easy to see why you support Israel if one ONLY takes the hard numbers into account and fails to see the context. You may be there thinking “Hey, Israel’s killed 709 militants and captured 120 more, that’s almost a thousand terrorists gone and only 295 people died! Those people will grow up not to be terrorists, and it’ll take a long time before Hamas can replenish those thousand people, so that buys us years of peace! Success!” Sadly, that train of thought ignores the relatives of those innocents who died, ignores the injured, and ignores the displaced.
Maybe you can answer this question for me: If we accept the premise that for those thousand terrorists that Israel killed or captured, they are creating 10000 more, is that a formula for success? Or will you ignore the question and assume a strawman again?
I dunno, 250 + 300 + 150 = 700, pretty close to the IDF’s 709 numbers. The article makes no mention of civilian numbers that are different from the wiki sources. Seems pretty accurate to me.
Or maybe you had issues with the site calling the 250 “martyrs”? Well in case you didn’t notice, they were quoting a Hamas official, it wasn’t the news agency’s own words.
And for a news source that you probably don’t think much of as far as its independence goes, their wiki lists a threat from Hamas after criticizing them. Why do you automatically assume a Palestine-based agency is untrustworthy? That was your intent right?
This is a funny statement, I’m not sure if you even realize what you did. By saying that the IDF figures are the most accurate ones, contrasting the Ma’an News agency cite, you basically have to assume that the IDF are accurate in the first place. Otherwise, where exactly are we basing what’s accurate from? This is why people don’t trust you, because you automatically assume one side is right.
Again, assuming the Israeli government’s military’s own cite is correct? Without any reason to? I could point you to Wiki’s multi-sourced article on this new conflict and the IDF by FAR has the highest estimated militant count. Contrast that with the PCHR (338 militants), the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (230 militants, 329 unknown), the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, an Israeli group with IDF ties (467 militants, 605 unknown).
Go back to the reason why we’re having this conversation in the first place. You claimed a 1:1 ratio of Israeli estimated militant to civilian death rate. About 2000 people have died, and, according to the IDF, half of them were terrorists. So what does that make the survivors of the 1000 innocents? Do you think they will grow up loving Israel? Hasn’t Israel just created thousands more terrorists? Aren’t they falling for the same shit Hamas pulls to lure them into overreacting again? This is a solution?
Think of it this way: Let’s say you talked to an IDF member in 2009 after that conflict. You tell him they killed 709 militants and 295 civilians. Then you tell him that 5 years later (skipping over the 2012 Operation Pillar of Defense) in 2014, he’ll have to fight Hamas again and this time he’ll kill 1000 militants and 1000 civilians (so far), do you think he’ll be happy about the outcome of 2009 and think that he struck a blow for peace? Or do you think he’ll reconsider the IDF’s tactics?
And this is impossible without Palestinian civilian deaths? As in, the combined intelligence and military might of Israel can only accomplish this on a temporary basis through the killing of some Hamas members while accepting the (at least) equal number of civilian Palestinian deaths? This is their solution? And they’re fine repeating this every 2 or 3 years in perpetuity?
Why not? Don’t you think that would be more effective? I mean, if Israel doesn’t wipe out the inhabitants of Gaza, then they are basically saying we’ll do this whole song and dance again in 2017 or 2018? Are you happy about that?
Because it takes time to sort out the numbers, and the most recent one is ongoing.
Of course it is accurate. It is a confirmation of IDF numbers. Note that this is a year AFTER the fact. At the time, though, Hamas was claiming, as it does today, that 80% of the killed were civilians. Do you get the point?
I will repeat it slowly. Israeli military’s cite is trustworthy because it was shown to be trustworthy in the past. The “80% of them civilians” claims by Hamas and UN are not trustworthy because they were shown not to be trustworthy in the past. Do you get the point?
It is a start.
As I said before, I think Israeli politicians are too timid in their tactics. So yes, they should be reconsidered. Hopefully they will be. Doing things half way guarantees future conflicts.
1:1, under the circumstances, is the best that can be done, yes. US/Nato or other forces did worse.
No. I think Gaza should be retaken and cleansed of Hamas. A de-hamasification program if you will.
Oh, and YogSosoth, I asked you, if I gave you cites for the 1:1 ratio, will that change your opinion? You said it would. Then you post that even if it is true, it wouldn’t change your opinions. Guess I won’t believe you next time.
Keeping in mind I’d also like a rainbow pony, I’d like to see UN nations put up or shut up, assemble a contingent of 20-30K multinational troops and occupy Gaza. Dismantle Hamas and the 18 or so other groups as bad or worse than Hamas, install a peace-seeking government and hold closely monitored democratic elections.
If they elect more terrorists, well… maybe Gaza should become an internationally occupied Berlin or something.
Then why didn’t you use the 2012 one? Or pick a period between, I dunno, 2000-2010 and tally up all the numbers? I think you picked a specific conflict because it supports your claim
Your logic is circular. All we know is that they have similar numbers for the militants. It could mean both are correct or neither are correct. Since your contention is that the Ma’an News Agency is biased, then you should actually be unhappy their numbers were so close to the IDF. If they agree with some other source on the number of civilian deaths, I wonder what your response would be then?
Lol, just because you trust them in the past doesn’t give them a record of trustworthiness. As I said at the start of our little discussion, I doubt the numbers because YOU are saying them. Claiming to get it from an obviously biased source doesn’t put any more credibility on your side or your sources
A start of what? A solution? Your solution is to kill more innocent people and assume their survivors grow up to support Israel? THAT’S your plan? If I kill your family in order to shut you up about a political topic, will you cow to my wish or will you plot revenge?
So your solution is to kill more people. Right, that has certainly solved Israel’s problems in the past ::oldrolleyessmiley::
I wasn’t aware the US and NATO started bombing Gaza.
And how do you think they should do that? Let’s see you chart out a plan
And I said that I’d believe you if you gave credible sources. Since you didn’t do that and failed to justify your numbers, I lived up to my end of the bargain. Not that I expected you to have lived up to yours, but such is dealing with Terr :dubious:
You are, of course, implying that the Palestinians need a peaceful leader to rally them and protest their conditions without violence? You do realize that there is a whole other faction in Palestine that has been trying to deal with Israel peacefully? I wouldn’t say that Abbas has the charisma of a MLK, but to infer that the Palestinians are not peaceful is crazy
When MLK marched, the Black Panthers were active. When MLK was preaching peace, Malcolm X said white people were the devil. Israel’s problem is that they get drawn into the conflict by assuming one side, the violent side, represents all of Palestine. What they should be doing is dealing with Fatah and not reacting to Hamas. And people like you and Terr fall into the con of believing that the rockets are coming from the Palestinians people rather than a small faction of extremists
Abbas has taken his case to the world. He’s protested to Israel about its violence, their killings, begged the UN to help make Palestine a country. In that sense he’s very much broadened the world to the injustice suffered by the Palestinians. And in response Israel tries to demonize him, ignore him, distract others by pointing out violence by Hamas which has nothing to do with Fatah, and call on the UN to reject Palestinian statehood. I guess Israel, in this case, is much more like the colonizing Britain or southern segregation states than a bastion of freedom
Let me explain it slowly. Palestinians swore up and down that, as in current conflict, 80% of the casualties in 2009 were civilians. Including the Maan News Agency. The, a year later, they finally admitted that the numbers were somewhere around 50%, just like IDF had been reporting all along.
Again, read this slowly so maybe you will understand. IDF’s numbers have been shown, objectively, to be correct in the past. Unlike other agencies’.
The explanation is that the Gazan population, when they heard (and believed) the “vast majority of fatalities were civilians” were outraged at the perceived cowardice of Hamas (due to the reported tiny militant fatalities). That is why Hamas came clear.
