Israel or Hamas - who do you think is in the right?

[Malthus]

@Terr

The explanation is that the Gazan population, when they heard (and believed) the “vast majority of fatalities were civilians” were outraged at the perceived cowardice of Hamas (due to the reported tiny militant fatalities). That is why Hamas came clear.

The problem, though, is that as far as I know there is no way of knowing if either set of figures are accurate.

It seems that the only org who is in a position to know the truth is Hamas - but they simply state whatever figures are conveinient to them at the moment. They could be lying now, just like they were lying then.

[Terr]

@Malthus

The problem, though, is that as far as I know there is no way of knowing if either set of figures are accurate.

It seems that the only org who is in a position to know the truth is Hamas - but they simply state whatever figures are conveinient to them at the moment. They could be lying now, just like they were lying then.

Since those figures match the IDF figures that were out there all along, that’s an indication that they are correct.

[carnivorousplant]

@Terr

Since those figures match the IDF figures that were out there all along, that’s an indication that they are correct.

I wonder if Hamas cribbed the IDF numbers.

[Malthus]

@Terr

Since those figures match the IDF figures that were out there all along, that’s an indication that they are correct.

… or that, facing a pissed off population, Hamas conveniently adopted the IDF numbers.

Both are possible.

[YogSothoth]

Oh Terr, what would we do without your skewed polls? LOL! :rolleyes:

@Terr

2012 - let’s see - March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes - Wikipedia - 18 militants and 5 civilians killed? That one? Only proves my point.

I mean Operation Pillar of Defense. Estimates of civilian death range from the lowest of 57 (Israeli claim) to 105 (Palestinian claim) and 971 wounded compared to your 18 militants killed and 29 wounded. Where’s the 1:1 ratio there?

@Terr

Let me explain it slowly. Palestinians swore up and down that, as in current conflict, 80% of the casualties in 2009 were civilians. Including the Maan News Agency. The, a year later, they finally admitted that the numbers were somewhere around 50%, just like IDF had been reporting all along.

So you’re saying the Ma’an News Agency is a trustworthy source, right? No of course you’re not saying that, but that’s what your words and logic point to. I’m glad you don’t think Palestinian sources are false anymore, that’s a big step for you

@Terr

Again, read this slowly so maybe you will understand. IDF’s numbers have been shown, objectively, to be correct in the past. Unlike other agencies’.

Right, shown by you. Because you cite them. Therefore it must be correct. ::oldrolleyes::

[Terr]

@YogSosoth

I mean Operation Pillar of Defense. Estimates of civilian death range from the lowest of 57 (Israeli claim) to 105 (Palestinian claim) and 971 wounded compared to your 18 militants killed and 29 wounded. Where’s the 1:1 ratio there?

Again: from your source.

Israeli figures: 120 combatants killed vs 57 civilians
ITIC figures: 101 combatants vs 68 civilians
Betselem figures: 62 combatants, 87 civilians

I am not even citing Palestinian-supplied figures, because those are utterly unreliable. And Betselem is an extreme left pro-Palestinian organization.

But as you see, yes, 1:1 ratio.

[YogSothoth]

I like how you ignored the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in your post. Real subtle, like you didn’t want people to consider it. But you’re not biased, you’re just bad with numbers

[Terr]

@YogSosoth

I like how you ignored the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in your post. Real subtle, like you didn’t want people to consider it. But you’re not biased, you’re just bad with numbers

I didn’t ignore. I explicitly said I am not citing them, because they are utterly unreliable. A Hamas propaganda mouthpiece.

[Shodan]

@YogSosoth

I like how you ignored the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in your post. Real subtle, like you didn’t want people to consider it. But you’re not biased, you’re just bad with numbers

What is your evidence that the Palestinian Center’s figures are accurate?

Regards,
Shodan

[YogSothoth]

@Terr

I didn’t ignore. I explicitly said I am not citing them, because they are utterly unreliable. A Hamas propaganda mouthpiece.

Just like the IDF is an Israeli mouthpiece?

@Shodan

What is your evidence that the Palestinian Center’s figures are accurate?

What evidence do you have that the IDF’s numbers are accurate?

You know what? Both of you, don’t answer those questions, I already know what you’re going to say. At this point we’re just going around in circles so as far as I’m concerned, the debate is over. You two feel free to trust Israel for all Palestinian civilian casualty numbers and I’ll feel free to trust numbers from an NGO or the UN.

[Trinopus]

@YogSosoth

. . . You two feel free to trust Israel for all Palestinian civilian casualty numbers and I’ll feel free to trust numbers from an NGO or the UN.

I will only trust numbers from my uncle Herman in Minneapolis. Your numbers don’t match his, so you’re clearly wrong.

[carnivorousplant]

@Trinopus

I will only trust numbers from my uncle Herman in Minneapolis. Your numbers don’t match his, so you’re clearly wrong.

Does Uncle Herman have a web page?

[Trinopus]

He mimeos his newsletter.

[carnivorousplant]

@Trinopus

He mimeos his newsletter.

Dear Uncle Herman,
I am impressed with your statistical, accurate reports, and would like to receive your newsletter.

[GusNSpot]

@carnivorousplant

Dear Uncle Herman,
I am impressed with your statistical, accurate reports, and would like to receive your newsletter.

With the mail not service we have been getting of late up here in this part of the state, you might have to wait a while… ::: sigh ::::

[Tamerlane]

@Gary_T

Hamas didn’t get where they are by subverting the Palestinians’ will and forcing themselves upon them. They were embraced by the majority.

A nitpick, but I think it is worth throwing out there that that isn’t quite correct. Hamas won an absolute majority of legislative seats, but it did so with a plurality of the vote not a majority. The 2006 election used a combination of proportional representation and constituency seating. Proportionally it was pretty close -, ~44% Hamas to ~41% Fatah and 29 vs. 28 seats. In terms of the popular vote for the non-proportional seats it was also fairly close - ~41% Hamas vs. ~36% Fatah. But in terms of actual seats won it was a slaughter - 45 to 17.

Before this most recent crisis polls seemed to indicate that Hamas popularity had dropped several percentage points below that of Fatah in Gaza. How accurate that is I have no idea. But I wouldn’t make the assumption that Gazans as a whole are lockstep in support of Hamas. Things are seldom that simple.

[BlakeHayner]

What exists between the two is Internalized Oppression, people of the Semitic Races using violence upon one another to make the point that one side is right thereby making the other wrong.

I am only pathologizing because I really cannot know these peoples truth about themselves unless I am Semitic. Therefore my observation is just that an observation.

My observation can be concluded to be biased having White, Male, Christian Privilege.

Blessings

Blake Hayner

[bldysabba]

It’s a little late to be posting this, but I just read a blog by Sam Harris that lays out several good reasons that I think lay out very well the reasons for ‘siding’ with Israel. http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

[carnivorousplant]

Thanks, bldysabba.