Sevastopol brought this to my attention. Story:
:eek: The Jordan Valley?! That’s not only east of the Green Line, it’s east of the Wall! How can they do this and expect anyone believe they have any intention of allowing “independent” Palestine an open border with Jordan?!
Reality check! Israel, after beating off the nations who attacked her, CAPTURED LAND. THIS is how nations get more land! To imply Israel cannot use the land they captured in accordance with EONS of world history, is not only asinine, it is obviously a sign of some deeper bias.
Please, Don, let’s not start with the “disagreeing with the government of Isreal” = “antisemitism” bullshit.
No, this is stupidity. This is the time to be making good faith moves to diminish settlements, if for no other reason than to support the potential ascendancy of pragmatic forces as represented by Abbas.
Dumb dumb dumb.
And here is where Israel’s own best interests would be served by an American administration willing to slap her down some.
:rolleyes: I recall answering that fatuous and atavistic argument in another thread, though you might have missed it . . .
But the point is that the Israeli government has repeatedly declared its intention of allowing the Palestinians their independence, eventually. This latest decision moves one to doubt their sincerity.
Amen, DSeid. It’s pure chain jerking.
How is this the Defense Minister’s decision and announcement, not the Prime Minister’s?
And is this announcement really more than an attempt to placate domestic criticism from the hardline Eretz Israel types?
Doesn’t matter, if they’re actually going to do it!
We don’t know that yet.
Every settlement has been a bone to throw to minority views on the right … and together they’ve created this great idiocy. The difference now is that Kadima was voted in on a platform of disengagement and marginalized those views.
Idiots.
Meanwhile, the Christian Friends of Israel Communities are soliciting donations to help ousted Gaza settlers relocate to Maskiot.
This cite has a map showing Maskiot’s location, if you can read Hebrew, but I guess the black arrow makes it clear enough.
Based on map on this page, the Israelis already have a lot of settlements in the Jordan Valley.
The U.S., for once, is opposing the plan.
I dunno–is this in an area administered by the Israeli Military?
But speaking from a basically pragmatic (and pro-Zionist) point of view, the West Bank and Gaza have nearly 4 million Arabs living on them (and population growth rates of over 3% in both sections); Israel itself only has 6 million and change (and a considerably lower growth rate). What do you propose Israel do with (or to) all those people? I’m guessing you’re not a fan of the idea that Israel just grant them all citizenship (and I would certainly think that to be deeply impractical, although the position has vocal defenders on this board). But all the other alternatives other than Palestinian statehood range from deeply unpleasant on down.
Unlike the arabs in the neighborhood, Israel has NEVER expressed a desire to exterminate ANYONE. I’d imagine if palestinian groups stopped shooting rockets into Israel and actually stopped shooting during cease fires that they beg for, Israel would be more than happy to live in peace with them. There are a great many arab citizens of Israel, some even elected to the whateveritscalled legislature ( I can NEVER remember that word) . Its pretty unlikely that there will be peace anytime soon as the terrorist group Hamas is the elected government of the palestinian territories…
My point is, it’s going to be pretty hard for Israel to ever have peace with the Palestinians if the Israeli settlers and their allies are allowed to create “facts on the ground” that make it geographically impossible for there to be an Israel alongside an independent but peace-loving Palestine (when or if such a thing arises).
It might be one thing for Israel to say, as long as you keep shooting rockets at us, we’ll keep carrying out military raids against the bases in your territory used to launch attacks; even that we’ll militarily occupy your country and maintain military garrisons there. But the civilian settlements Israel has established scattered throughout the West Bank (in territory Israel has never formally annexed) make it hard to see what a permanent peace would even look like: Israel can’t very well annex 4 million Palestinians and remain Israel; I agree with you that I don’t think Israel will just carry out genocide in the occupied territories; but that leaves them stuck with permanently occupying or semi-occupying a territory with millions of people who hate them, in order to protect outposts of Israeli civilians.
You know, I hear this all the time and the arguments behind it always seem weak to me. How about this: Can you tell me of one other state in the world, other than the Jewish one, where if the citizens of that state had been subjected to as long and continuously violent series of genocidal attacks as Israel has been since it’s founding, where your attitude wouldn’t be “They have every right to defend themselves against terrorists”. The U.S invaded Afghanistan to the cheers of the world, and the attack we suffered on 9/11 is tiny compared to the cumulative attacks launched on Israel over the last 60 years. So, if it isn’t antisemitism…what is it? Why is Israel held to such impossibly high standards while the Palestinians are held to none at all?
There has never been even one genocidal attack on Israel.
Not invading other people homes and driving them out for your own pleasure is an impossibly high standard?
There has never been a successful genocidal attack on Israel.
Had the wars of 1948, 1956, or 1967 been successful, I suspect that we would have at least one genocidal attack to look back on.
Your statement is unclear.
There are two separate phenomena: Some undefined (but not insignificant) number of people do attack Israel’s policies and right to exist based on anti-semitic impulse; some small (but significant) number of defenders of Israel use the first phenomenon as a base on which to claim that all attacks on Israeli policies are, themselves, based on anti-semitism.
When Don26 claims that any opposition to Israeli policy is “obviously a sign of some deeper bias,” he certainly appears to be aligning himself with those who demonstrate the second phenomenon. Your response to dropzone is not sufficiently elaborated to make it clear whether you actually agree with Don26’s apparent claim of “obvious” “bias” or whether you are making some other point.
That’s nice. Shall I tell you of my own suspicions and snuggle up for chocolate and a night of fantastical ghost stories or, shall we instead, as an alternative, consider the extradordinary evidence which is singularly lacking in support of Weirddave’s claims?