Israel plans new WB settlement -- in the Jordan Valley!

[BrainGlutton]

@Don26

The funny thing is, by Muslim logic, we HAVE to like Israel.
The proverb "The enemy of my enemy is my friend: is Arabic!!!

Not hard to believe, but . . .

1. Cite?

2. “Arabic” != “Muslim”.

[Don26]

@BrainGlutton

Not hard to believe, but . . .

1. Cite?

2. “Arabic” != “Muslim”.

Cited Anoter cite
As to 2, predominately, yep…

[BrainGlutton]

@Don26

As to 2, predominately, yep…

Most Arabs are Muslims (though there are Christian and Druze Arabs; whether there are any Jewish Arabs is a controversial semantic/terminological question). But most of the world’s Muslims are not Arabs.

[Don26]

@BrainGlutton

Most whether there are any Jewish Arabs is a controversial semantic/terminological question).

But, its not a semitic one.
Couldn’t resist the pun, especially since its true, semitic refers to the group of Languages that both Arabic and Hebrew are a part of. Ergo, a suicidal Arab is anti-semitic, as are all homocide bombers

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Don26

Ergo, a suicidal Arab is anti-semitic, as are all homocide bombers

Unless they attack people who aren’t Jews or Arabs (or aren’t themselves).

[Don26]

@Revenant Threshold

Unless they attack people who aren’t Jews or Arabs (or aren’t themselves).

Hmm, kindly cite the last 5 homocide bombings not performed by arabs

[BrainGlutton]

@Don26

Hmm, kindly cite the last 5 homocide bombings not performed by arabs

Here’s one to start with.

And please stop using that dumbass Fox News phrase, “homicide bombing.” :rolleyes: Most bombings are done with homicidal intent; the suicidal aspect is what distinguishes al-Qaeda terrorist bombings from those, of, say, Timothy McVeigh, therefore it should be the defining label for such.

[Tamerlane]

@Don26

Hmm, kindly cite the last 5 homocide bombings not performed by arabs

March 26 2006

April 25 2006

June 26 2006

October 18 2006

Dec 1 2006

All by the LTTE in Sri Lanka.

• Tamerlane

[Revenant_Threshold]

And there’s the Mumbai bombings to add to the list.

What’s your attempted point, Don26?

[DSeid]

@dropzone

Meh. Close enough.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity,” and all, but there has to be a point where an action is so patently wrongheaded that you say, “Nobody could be THAT stupid,” and malice starts looking like the only adequate explanation. Then I look at the war in Iraq, toss out the conspiracy theories, and reconsider. :smack:

I know that this is a bit of a hijack, but I would like to bring this back to the “apartheid” thread … that saying is pretty much the essence of my point there. This settlement is incremently more stupid than the others because of Kadima’s clear mandate from the Israeli public in the last election, and because of its timing with political conflicts within the PA, but all settlements were based on the same basic stupidity. Not malice, not an attempt to disenfranchise a race or ethnicity or cultural group. Just idiotic decisions made for short-term political expediency which have added together to create to create a meta-idiocy.

Don, I am clearly what someone from the Pit would call “a Jewish zealot” … I care a lot about Israel’s survival and its ability to prosper. And as such I must say that I am glad that America is Israel’s friend, but a just like a friend doesn’t let a friend drive drunk, a friend doesn’t let a friend build more settlements. And, IMHO, demonizing Arabs and/or Muslims is as unhelpful as demonizing Israel with the apartheid smear is.

[MEBuckner]

@Don26

Hmm, kindly cite the last 5 homocide bombings not performed by arabs

Not necessarily the most recent or anything, just a random list of notable homicide bombings carried out by persons neither Arab nor Muslim:

Unabomber, various dates. 3 dead, a number of others injured or maimed. Ted Kaczynski , white American non-Muslim, serving life in prison without parole.

Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995. 168 dead. Timothy McVeigh, white American non-Muslim, convicted and executed; Terry Nichols, white American non-Muslim, serving life in prison without parole.

Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996; abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, January 29, 1998. 2 dead, others injured or maimed; other bombings carried out by the same perpetrator did not result in any deaths (despite the use of a second explosive timed to go off after police and emergency personnel would presumably be on the scene). Eric Robert Rudolph, white American non-Muslim, serving life in prison without parole.

Omagh bombing, August 15, 1998. 29 dead. Real IRA (white Irish non-Muslims).

Further back, the Haymarket bombing in Chicago in 1886 killed 8 policeman; Cubana Flight 455 was blown up in 1976 by Hispanic non-Muslims, killing all 73 people on board ; numerous other bombings by various factions of the IRA; bombings by the ETA (Basque separatists), etc., etc., etc.

[Don26]

Is recognizing and speaking about the actions of arabs and muslims effectively demonizing them? Only if their actions are that bad… gee, they are, go figure.

[BrainGlutton]

@Don26

Is recognizing and speaking about the actions of arabs and muslims effectively demonizing them? Only if their actions are that bad… gee, they are, go figure.

:rolleyes: [sigh] See, the problem is, Don – well, read this Pit thread from beginning to end – and this one – and this one – and most especially this one – and maybe you’ll discern just some inkling of what we’re trying to get across to you here.

Or not.

[Sevastopol]

@xtisme

@Sevastopol

That’s nice. Shall I tell you of my own suspicions and snuggle up for chocolate and a night of fantastical ghost stories or, shall we instead, as an alternative, consider the extradordinary evidence which is singularly lacking in support of Weirddave’s claims?

Wow…I’ve never seen anyone both bury their head in the sand AND put their fingers in their ears while saying loudly “I can’t hear you” at the same time. Out of curiosity, since you evidently don’t consider the writen and voiced intentions of the invaders during those wars Tom listed as ‘evidence’, what exactly WOULD convince you of the genocidal intentions of the various Arab armies that have constantly invaded Israel over the least 60 odd years? …

-XT

There are not enough rolleyes in world to do XT’s post justice.

[Apos]

Sigh. I just don’t get it. Yes, yes, I know, Israel is perfect, and Arabs are filthy genocidal hordes. I can believe all of that, I can be as oversimplified and one-sided about the conflict as anyone wants… but this STILL looks like a flatly stupid move.

Israel is merely creating tactical problems for itself that will continue to cause more and more problems in the future. Why? I don’t really know. Because right wing religious nuts are huge pains in ass everywhere, apparently.

[Themenin]

@DSeid

…all settlements were based on the same basic stupidity. Not malice, not an attempt to disenfranchise a race or ethnicity or cultural group. Just idiotic decisions made for short-term political expediency which have added together to create to create a meta-idiocy.

This is kind of a complicated assertion. Granted that the aim of the settlement is not to disenfranchise or drive out the Palestinians, but rather to throw a bone to the hard-right element. On the other hand, there is an element of Israeli society which does want to drive out (and worse) the Palestinians, and by throwing this bone to them, the Israeli government is abetting that agenda.

[Sevastopol]

@Themenin

This is kind of a complicated assertion. Granted that the aim of the settlement is not to disenfranchise or drive out the Palestinians, but rather to throw a bone to the hard-right element. On the other hand, there is an element of Israeli society which does want to drive out (and worse) the Palestinians, and by throwing this bone to them, the Israeli government is abetting that agenda.

Why grant it at all, that the aim of the settlement is not to further disenfranchise or drive out the Palestinians?*

• (Or ‘further apartheid’ and ‘ethnic cleanse’ if we are permitted to speak directly.)

[BrainGlutton]

@Sevastopol

Why grant it at all, that the aim of the settlement is not to further disenfranchise or drive out the Palestinians?*

• (Or ‘further apartheid’ and ‘ethnic cleanse’ if we are permitted to speak directly.)

Ermmm . . . because they’re already disenfranchised, and the impossibility of driving them out has already been demonstrated?

[BrainGlutton]

Of course, keeping this all in perspective . . . we’re only talking about 30 settler families.

At the moment.

[DSeid]

@Themenin

This is kind of a complicated assertion. Granted that the aim of the settlement is not to disenfranchise or drive out the Palestinians, but rather to throw a bone to the hard-right element. On the other hand, there is an element of Israeli society which does want to drive out (and worse) the Palestinians, and by throwing this bone to them, the Israeli government is abetting that agenda.

True, that is the effect. But still it must be recognized that even among settlers and their supporters the “drive 'em out” mentality is a minority view. My sense is that many settlers feel an attachment to the land and have a desire to live peacefully with Arab neihbors eventually. Once, back over four years ago, we had a very useful interchange with an Israeli settler Akohl in a thread I had started called A Constructive Israel Thread I had asked

Why, given all the places to settle, did you feel the need to set up shop in a location where many of your countrymen and the world see you as a"liability"? … Why should a long term peace and hope for a vibrant Israeli economy without fear of terror, and hope for Arab kids to grow up with aspirations to be businessmen and doctors and even (bleh) lawyers (instead of hoping to grow up to be a suicidal murderer … okay, small difference with lawyer), be risked by your feeling that you have a “personal attachment to the land”?

His answers were telling.

Israeli settlers are Jews. Telling people you cannot live on this hill because you are Jewish is racism.

…

my understanding is that most of the settlements were established on land which was publicly owned by a government that did not have international recognition for its annexation, unclaimed, or Jewish owned prior to Israel’s conquest of the area.

…
Of course we would have every right to be critical of a governemt that exploited its authority to dispossess people of their private property unfairly. Well my point is that Israel did not do that here. Private land was not confiscated from individuals in order to obtain the land that my house was built on. The developer might have purchased the land from some previous private owner or he may have been alloted the land by a government that was dealing with land that was at its disposal and did not neccesarily have to be purchased from a private owner.

So I think you are wrong to insist that the land was not Israel’s to distribute. It had to administer the territories. And allocating land for residential areas is part of that task.

…

The Jewish people also have rights to live here. These rights have been recognised internationaly in res 242 and in the Olslo accords and in other international declarations. As the administrators of the territories Israel has the obligation to enable Jewish people to live here ALONG SIDE the Arabs, which is what the government did.

My views on security issues?

There’s a limit to what can be accomplished militarily. Trust and mutual respect of rights has to be established. See me posts
on this earlier in this thread.

I disagreed with his analysis then and I do now, but my sense is that his thought process is a common, albeit mistaken one, among settlers. They do not see themselves as the problem and have no desire to displace Palestinians; they just want to live there too. It is foolishness but again not malice.

Back to the op. I cannot express how angry I am with Olmert’s administration over this. As you can see from that four year old thread, I’ve been a supporter of disengagement for a long time. I was thrilled when Sharon embraced the idea, disappointed when he went farther off the Green Line than security considerations required, worried when he had his stroke that disengagement would die with him, and thrilled that the Israeli public embraced it with a mandate for Kadima. And now Olmert shows himself to be a fool who has failed to learn from the mistakes of the past. 30 families or 300 families is not the point. The fact that the land is a former military base is immaterial. It is expanding that which you have committed to dismantle. Damn. It is getting more and more impossible to remain an optimist.