Israel ready to attack Iran?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@FinnAgain

Oh? When we went to war to protect Kuwait, do you recall many people suggesting that the Arab Americans within America were acting behind the scenes to dominate our government and make us fight wars on their behalf?

No, Pat Buchanan blamed the Jews.

[RedFury]

A Martian view of the Iran debate

(Paul Pillar has a great piece up at The National Interest that illuminates just how nutty the present debate about war with Iran really is)…

If a sensible Martian came down to Earth and looked at the sabre-rattling about Iran, I suspect he/she/it would be completely flummoxed. For our Martian visitor would observe two very capable states – the United States and Israel – threatening to attack a country that hardly seems worth the effort. The U.S. and Israel together spend more than $700 billion each year on their national security establishments; Iran spends about $10 billion. The U.S. and Israel have the most advanced military hardware in the world; Iran’s weapons are mostly outdated and lack spare parts. The U.S. and Israeli militaries are well-educated and very well-trained; not true of Iran. The United States has thousands of nuclear weapons and Israel has several hundred, while Iran has a vast arsenal of … zero. Iran does have a nuclear enrichment program (which is the reason for all the war talk), but the most recent National Intelligence Estimates have concluded that Iran does not presently have an active nuclear weapons program. The United States has several dozen military bases in Iran’s immediate vicinity; Iran has exactly none in the Western hemisphere. The United States has powerful allies in every corner of the world; Iran’s friends include a handful of minor nonstate actors like Hezbollah or minor-league potentates like Bashar al Assad (who’s not looking like an asset these days) or Hugo Chávez.

Moreover, the United States has fought four wars since 1990. It has bombed, invaded or occupied a half dozen countries in that period, leading to the deaths of thousands of people. Israel has been colonizing the West Bank since 1967, it invaded and occupied much of Lebanon from 1982 to 1999, and its armed forces pummeled Lebanon again in 2006 and Gaza in 2008-09. Prominent U.S. politicians have repeatedly called for “regime change” in Iran, and U.S. government officials now report that Israel has been murdering civilian scientists in Iran, in cahoots with the MEK, a terrorist organization that is still on the State Department’s terrorist “watchlist.” Iran’s past conduct is far from pure, but it has done nothing remotely similar in recent years.

In fact, given the various threats now facing Tehran, our Martian friend might have trouble explaining why Iran’s leaders hadn’t gone all-out to get themselves some sort of WMD, merely as a deterrent. And yet it is the United States and Israel that profess themselves to be terribly, terribly worried about the supposed “threat” from Iran, and who are contemplating a preventive war that most observers realize would strengthen Iran’s nuclear ambitions and could only delay its program for a couple of years…

[XT]

That Martian seems to have an interesting skew to his/her/it’s mindset, along with a pretty selective view of history and threat. That’s really…curious. Almost like that whole viewpoint of the supposed Martian is, well, highly spun to elicit a specific slant on the debate. Weird, ehe?

-XT

[RedFury]

@xtisme

That Martian seems to have an interesting skew to his/her/it’s mindset, along with a pretty selective view of history and threat. That’s really…curious. Almost like that whole viewpoint of the supposed Martian is, well, highly spun to elicit a specific slant on the debate. Weird, ehe?..

No. Martian. What did you expect?

[XT]

An article purporting to be from a supposed martian perspective that is really intended to spin things to make it seem reasonable? And this was pretty much what the article seems to do, so my expectations were met.

-XT

[RedFury]

BTW, where did The Martian get it wrong in his/her/its mindset? Seems pretty factual to me – not that I am a Martian…that I know of.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@RedFury

A Martian view of the Iran debate

Red, previously you posted a notoriously anti-Semitic article with no commentary other than a quote from the notoriously anti-Semitic, notoriously racist Voltaire and now you’re posting another article without any comment from a guy who publishes defenses of Holocaust Deniers on his blog.

Why this pattern of publishing anti-Semitic authors and quoting anti-Semites without any commentary?

How come the only writers you seem to quote approvingly seem to be those with issues with the Jews?

Or do you think we shouldn’t look down on intellectuals who publish blurbs on the backs of books endorsing Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism?

Also, you failed to answer my earlier question regarding Voltaire.

It’s generally considered polite to answer questions posed so please do so because it’s very simple.

Do you think the views Voltaire expressed about “the Jewish nation” were anti-Semitic and if you think they aren’t, do you approve of them?

Thanks

[XT]

[QUOTE=RedFury]
BTW, where did The Martian get it wrong in his/her/it’s mindset? Seems pretty factual to me – Martian and all.
[/QUOTE]

Well, there is a shock that it seems factual to you, Red. Of COURSE it does, since it has exactly the spin on things that you want to hear.

-XT

[RedFury]

@xtisme

An article purporting to be from a supposed martian perspective that is really intended to spin things to make it seem reasonable? And this was pretty much what the article seems to do, so my expectations were met.

-XT

Glad to hear you have such low expectations as an earthling…as a Martian, not so sure. Mayhaps that’s the biggest diff between you and I…my being a Martian and all.

[RedFury]

@xtisme

Well, there is a shock that it seems factual to you, Red. Of COURSE it does, since it has exactly the spin on things that you want to hear..

And that has what, exactly, to do with the substance? Seriously.

[XT]

That you think it’s reasonable and factual (snort) because it conforms to your own view of things, of course. It’s an article that is attempting to spin things to a certain viewpoint…and, frankly, isn’t really don’t a good job even there, since it’s so ridiculously transparent.

-XT

[RedFury]

@xtisme

That you think it’s reasonable and factual (snort) because it conforms to your own view of things, of course. It’s an article that is attempting to spin things to a certain viewpoint…and, frankly, isn’t really don’t a good job even there, since it’s so ridiculously transparent…

Well, after that crushing reply I am certainly convinced I am in the wrong.

Just like in '03. Thanks.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@RedFury

Glad to hear you have such low expectations as an earthling…as a Martian, not so sure. Mayhaps that’s the biggest diff between you and I…my being a Martian and all.

Well Red, remember we’re talking about a Martian who approved strongly of such quotes as

I think that 65 years after the liberation of Auschwitz, we must be entitled to start to ask the necessary questions. We should ask for some conclusive historical evidence and arguments rather than follow a religious narrative that is sustained by political pressure and laws. We should strip the holocaust of its Judeo-centric exceptional status and treat it as an historical chapter that belongs to a certain time and place.

Not many people are aware that in March 1933, long before Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Gardens and called for an American boycott of German goods…

…Jewish texts tend to glaze over the fact that Hitler’s March 28 1933, ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods, was an escalation in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.

“We have heard the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. I don’t like this comparison because I really think that Israel is far worse than Nazi Germany.”

Now, Red, wouldn’t you agree that a Martian who readily approves of statements like that is not someone who’s analysis of world events that we should take seriously?

[RedFury]

@Ibn_Warraq

Well Red, remember we’re talking about a Martian who approved strongly of such quotes as…

Quotes have nothing to do with the main thrust of the article – which I agree with. Nor do I see anywhere that he “approves strongly” of whatever comments are made in his comments section.

I do with some, not at all with many others. Happens in the best of families. AKA as attacking the messenger. A specialty of some on this very site. Great at parrying. Thrusting? Not so much.

[XT]

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Well, after that crushing reply I am certainly convinced I am in the wrong.
[/QUOTE]

Excellent…glad we cleared that up then, Red. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Just like in '03. Thanks.

Yeah, that makes sense.

-XT

[Ibn_Warraq]

@RedFury

Quotes have nothing to do with the main thrust of the article – which I agree with. Nor do I see anywhere that he “approves strongly” of whatever comments are made in his comments section.

I’m sorry but the above statement is laughably stupid.

The comments I quoted aren’t from Walt’s “comments section” of his blog.

They’re from a book called The Wandering Who, by Gilad Atzmon, which Walt approved of and his partner John Mearscheimer wrote a glowing review of which he allowed to be published on the back of the book.

As one can imagine from the above quotes, the book and author were harshly criticized and Walt published several defenses of the book and the author on the blog insisting the author wasn’t an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier and was a serious intellectual with valuable ideas.

Even people like Andrew Sullivan who normally defend the two were quite shaken by this and some rethought their previous defenses of the anti-Semitic duo.

Now Red, you go on to say that “I do with some, not at all with many others” seeming to indicate you agree with some of Atzmon’s quotes.

Ok, which ones?

I think that 65 years after the liberation of Auschwitz, we must be entitled to start to ask the necessary questions. We should ask for some conclusive historical evidence and arguments rather than follow a religious narrative that is sustained by political pressure and laws. We should strip the holocaust of its Judeo-centric exceptional status and treat it as an historical chapter that belongs to a certain time and place.

Not many people are aware that in March 1933, long before Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Gardens and called for an American boycott of German goods…

…Jewish texts tend to glaze over the fact that Hitler’s March 28 1933, ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods, was an escalation in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.

[QUOTE]
“We have heard the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. I don’t like this comparison because I really think that Israel is far worse than Nazi Germany.”

[QUOTE]

Thanks

[tomndebb]

@RedFury

BTW, where did The Martian get it wrong in his/her/its mindset? Seems pretty factual to me – not that I am a Martian…that I know of.

He made a serious effort to ignore the fact that Iran has supported at least two separate terrorist organizations who have each inflicted attacks on Israel and at least one of which has inflicted attacks on the U.S. or its citizens abroad. It also ignores the fact that while Iran has never shown any specific urge to conquer its immediate neighbors, it has actively supplied both of those terrorist organizations with materiel. This would lead an observant Martian to recognize that there is a non-zero chance that Iran might decide to pass on its nuclear weaponry, (either as fission bombs or as simply “dirty” bombs using enriched nuclear fuel), to those same terrorist groups, not caring–perhaps even desiring–that they would employ them against the U.S., Israel, or other countries that fell afoul of the theocrats in charge of Iran.

[Spoke]

@tomndebb

This would lead an observant Martian to recognize that there is a non-zero chance that Iran might decide to pass on its nuclear weaponry, (either as fission bombs or as simply “dirty” bombs using enriched nuclear fuel), to those same terrorist groups, not caring–perhaps even desiring–that they would employ them against the U.S., Israel, or other countries that fell afoul of the theocrats in charge of Iran.

Not unless the Martian presumed the Iranians to be suicidal. I think the more likely conclusion by the Martian would be that the Iranians were seeking a deterrent.

[tomndebb]

I also think the Iranians are seeking a deterrent.
However, they have demonstrated a lack of restraint regarding the terrorist groups that they fund and I think that it would be irresponsible for the Israeli or U.S. governments to assume that no future Iranian leader would give the terrorists nuclear weapons. There would always be the possibility that a new Ayatollah would think that they could get away with arming the terrorists while denying that they were involved. It is not as though we have seen a great deal of intelligence displayed by any number of world leaders in the last hundred years.

[FinnAgain]

@tomndebb

He made a serious effort to ignore the fact that Iran has supported at least two separate terrorist organizations who have each inflicted attacks on Israel and at least one of which has inflicted attacks on the U.S. or its citizens abroad.

And, in context, somehow forgot to mention that Israel’s wars against Lebanon and Gaza last decade were defensive. He must’ve run out of column inches, Martians are notoriously terse.

In any case, the real worry isn’t so much that Iran would give nukes to their proxy forces, although that is a potential. The much more plausible worry is that Iran will ramp up their proxy forces’ violence and count on the fact that it would have a nuclear deterrent should Israel decide to retaliate directly against Hezbollah’s/Hamas’ masters.